251: The Art of Attraction: Mapping the Natural Client Experience

Mills: 0:00

The key to all of it find the thing that you really enjoy doing and also your marketing message, like I think the messaging is the key piece for everything how we speak to our clients.

Camille: 0:18

So you want to make an impact. You're thinking about starting a business, sharing your voice. How do women do it that handle motherhood, family and still chase after those dreams? We'll listen each week as we dive into the stories of women who know this is Call Me CEO. Welcome back everyone to Call Me CEO.

Camille: 0:40

This is your host, camille Walker, and here we celebrate mothers building businesses and doing it well, while balancing family and children and business. It is crazy, we all know this. It's not easy, but there are a lot of women doing it really well and that is what I love to celebrate here on the podcast, and today is no exception. We have Mills Gray, who is an incredible coach for helping you to get over the BS bro marketing tactics. She's been a business owner for 16 years. She was a scuba dive instructor, which is really cool, so you know she's already like way cool and she's a mom of two, a doer, an action taker.

Camille: 1:19

She also talks about spirituality in business. It's not all about the hustle, the grind. It's about doing what speaks to your soul. Her podcast is called Soul Leaders, where she shares marketing and sales tips. So today we're going to be talking specifically about how to create a natural client journey. That feels good for those high ticket sales for service providers and how you, too, can offer the same. So, mills, thank you for being on the show today.

Mills: 1:47

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here, so yeah.

Camille: 1:51

Well, you're just so sweet already from the get go being a listener of the podcast. I appreciate that so much because I feel like we already are friends and our names are basically the same she's Camilla, I'm Camille, so we already have lots in common. So tell our audience a little bit more about you.

Mills: 2:08

Yeah, so I mean, that was a stellar intro. It's so funny when you remember what you actually wrote and you're like, oh, this is amazing.

Mills: 2:19

No, that is me First and foremost. You know I am a mom of two teenagers, girls which you know is a freaking business in itself and I have been a business owner for yes, it's actually 17 years now and you know it's fair to say that there have definitely been ups and downs, but I literally love, love, love, working for myself and helping other women to really step into that idea that they don't have to conform, they don't have to go and do the nine to five or be stuck at home or whatever that sort of like typical journey might look like, and so I've made it my mission really to to be brave, to put my head above the parapet. I always say that running a business requires you to have courage, and so, yeah, it's been a really fun roller coaster, but a fun journey of business ownership and helping other people. And I love strategy and marketing and all of the kind of the masculine energy do, do, do. But I also love the feminine, the receiving.

Mills: 3:32

But it's taken me a little bit of time to step away from that and not always be in like hustle mode and just understanding that there really are two sides of the coin and it's best to try and fit into both rather than just stay in one lane when it comes to your energy. So I've worked hard as well in the last few years on just yeah, really doing that kind of like grounding and remembering why we do it, because otherwise I think you can just get caught up and stuck in hustle. No one likes hustle mills, I tell you I don't anyway.

Camille: 4:13

I feel like that comes with age, too, and it comes with a good, healthy dose of success. I feel like when you do get to a place where you're like, oh, my goodness, I reached the top of this mountain, top, things are good, and you have this minute to kind of look around and think, gosh, I want to help other people do this, and I also want to get back to the roots of who I am on the inside, which it's really interesting being in the online culture of women building businesses, because it's so vast and so there's so much potential. There's plenty of room for everyone. I really genuinely feel that way. There's plenty of room for everyone. I really genuinely feel that way. And what's interesting is, I went to a creator event, because I've been a blogger creator for 13 years and I was at Universal Studios.

Camille: 4:55

They were hosting us. This was just a couple of weeks ago and there were a few more than a few young moms who were who I was 10, 12 years ago, and I could see in them that hustle, that grind, that every minute, looking around and thinking, oh, I need to capture that content or I need to do this thing, or oh, and just like that constant where. Now, as a mom with teenagers and I've been in the business for a minute I feel like I have that, the wonderful ability to take a step back and think, okay, where is that receiving, where is that grace? I can take a minute to kind of chill out a little bit, but I appreciate who I was as that brand new mom, and that hustle and figuring it out in the nap times and everything else Cause otherwise I couldn't be where I am today. So I love that you say that, that there's really that hustle, and then also the learning to chill and figuring it out that way to reconnect.

Mills: 5:51

Definitely. And actually what you just said is perfect. You know she got you to today, so you know we're grateful, but it also doesn't mean that we have to also carry on doing the same thing forever. And actually, when you are in a newer business owner, it's nice to hear that to also carry on doing the same thing Forever, forever. And actually when you are a newer business owner, it's nice to hear that because I think a lot of the time you're so desperate to get to that place and you're just like when am I going to get there? How am I going to get there? Do more, do more, do more. And actually when you hear people who are like, actually you will get there and it is okay, like actually you will get there and it is okay and it is okay to have boundaries, I think it's really reassuring for people.

Camille: 6:27

There is a light at the end of the tunnel, yeah, and where you're helping so many people come into this space and create marketing funnels. There are so many ways to do this and I've experienced many ways of doing this and some have been good and some not so good, and I think my lesson over and over has been what you focus on will grow. It's when I try to do too many things at the same time. You know that shiny thing or oh, this is the new way. But I would love to hear in your experience, especially where you're helping others to create these funnels for marketing, what are some things working right now that allow for a natural client journey in your experience?

Mills: 7:08

It's a good question, because I think there isn't one answer. I think it really. I always advise people to really lean into the thing that they like to do, because I think when it comes to marketing and selling, there are so many ways and actually all of them probably work. If you put time, energy and some strategy, they will work. So then it's a case of going okay, I can't do all of them, because if you do all of them, you're just going to do them all a little bit scrappy and maybe a little bit badly, which is the thing that you like doing. So I hate doing webinars. I was taught to. You know, have a webinar, get 150 people on and then five show up and you're like what? I've been there, yeah, and then you sell at the end of it. That's not my idea of what I like to do, but that's not to say they don't work because they do. So I always think find the thing that you enjoy doing first, so you might enjoy podcasting. I'm guessing you do, you, you're doing it, and that to me is like a great marketing funnel. It's like using it to your advantage. So I'd say, if you like doing blogs or podcasts, do that, but then turn all of that content into your a greater marketing funnel. So, for example, take a a podcast episode and turn it into five emails and five pieces of instagram captions or facebook posts or linkedin posts or whichever channel you're in, and repurpose so that you're actually making a kind of wider use of the thing that you like doing.

Mills: 8:48

I think there's plenty of room to do both organic and paid, but I appreciate that paid might come a little bit later in your journey where you might think I don't want to risk doing paid ads just in case they don't work. But I think if you can get your organic strategy right and your organic messaging right, then honestly, paid is just a hell of a lot easier. And then you start to see leads coming in and you're like, okay, this is, this is easy. So the key to all of it find the thing that you really enjoy doing and also your marketing message. Like, I think the messaging is the key piece for everything how we speak to our clients. A lot of the time we think we're solving a problem that they have and we probably are, and we're experts in helping them with that but we might be five steps ahead of where they're at. So we're describing it in a way that they don't really get right.

Mills: 9:46

I'm going to use, like a, a really sort of extreme example. But let's say you, you, your client, you're a health coach and you know that your client wants to lose weight, but you know that actually, if you regulate their nervous system, that's going to help them. And so you start talking about breath work and regulating nervous systems to have a healthier lifestyle and lose weight. But they're like what? No, no, no, I just want to lose weight. You know that the solution might be a little bit more than that and that's what you're talking to, but actually your client, your ideal client, doesn't, so it doesn't resonate. So your program is not selling, or your course isn't selling, or your one-on-one isn't selling, and so I always think just really being so crystal clear on the messaging is going to then help you with that sales journey. So it's like, find your lane of what you like to do and make sure your marketing message is spot on.

Camille: 10:40

I love that advice because I think you're right where we may be ahead or steps down the lane, where we don't even realize that we're talking to maybe a next level of scenario, where that's level two, three, four, five. So taking steps back or reining that information back in, what is your advice for helping people to find what that problem and solution is, for giving a clear identification?

Mills: 11:10

I think if you haven't had the luxury of having clients yet because I would always say what are your clients saying to you right now? Because I always think whatever they're saying to you is is really your marketing gold because what they're saying, probably other people feel the same and so it's just making sure you're really listening to that and using all of that terminology and language and understanding of the problem in your messaging. But if you're sitting here thinking, oh, I don't actually have any clients yet or I haven't got enough to ask, I will always say find someone in your industry who is like a superstar, who's like a celebrity within your world. So I'm going to, just for argument's sake, take Mel Robbins as an example.

Mills: 11:54

If I was a life coach or if I was somebody who is into self-development, Mel Robbins is someone that I kind of know who she is. She's got a huge following. Go to her Instagram and see what people are commenting in the comments, because she will have tons of comments. Anything that she writes about people are going to comment and just really research and see what they're saying. What are the problems that they're saying? Now, I've used like life coaching as an example, because it's like an easy one that came to the top of my head, but this actually works almost in every single industry. Find those kind of megastars, see what they're talking about and see what the comments are, because the comments are probably your ideal client.

Camille: 12:37

I like that. And then, when you speaking about ads and this is kind of skipping ahead a little bit, but I, what I love about ads and this is kind of skipping ahead a little bit, but I what I love about ads, especially through meta, is that you can mimic audiences of people that you identify as being those mega stars that you say. I want to mimic this audience of who that person would be and I think that that's a really helpful practice is to look at, okay, who? Who is that person that I would say, yeah, we're, we have the same belief system, we're in the same, and then you can actually use that to help you identify ad marketing as well, which I think is really cool.

Mills: 13:10

Yes, definitely, definitely. The funny thing with ads, though, is that I will say your audience is like it's almost not as important with the ads as you think, because you kind of okay, okay, obviously, let's just say you only serve women, you want to just be saying women, but the messaging and the offer that comes with it is probably I would rank it above the audience that you pick, because sometimes, with something like meta, it can be a bit woolly and it's like okay and confusing for sure, and confusing, definitely so again for me, and sort of my message I would always go back to what are you saying?

Mills: 13:55

what is the thing that you're trying to solve? What problem are you helping them with? What goal are they reaching, like, what is that thing and what's the messaging around that? Because the right people will meta, will teach whoever looks at it and engages. That's actually more important than maybe who you've said, because they're like oh, you know, camille's engaged. Okay, we need more camilles. And then they go off. They do their weird thing. I don't know what they do. The magic of yeah, the magic stalking you.

Mills: 14:23

Yeah, it's clever, but yeah it is really. I think finding people who are, I'm just going to say, celebrities I know that they're probably not all celebrities at all, but finding people who are big in your industry is going to help you to understand that messaging and what people are looking for.

Camille: 14:42

Okay. So, keeping that in mind, how do we create a natural journey for our potential clients?

Mills: 14:50

Yeah. So I personally think that we want to give as much as we can for them to get to know us, and I think sometimes we sell too quick. Now I am going to caveat this there is a big difference between an American audience and a UK audience Like us Brits, okay yeah. I actually I'm in a mastermind with an American. She's brilliant and she's always like God you Brits are, so you know you take your time.

Mills: 15:24

I think Americans are very much and obviously I'm generalizing, but they are able to make a decision quicker on a purchase than a Brit. Us Brits are a little bit cynical. We're like, well, I'm going to think about it and I'm going to go away and I'm going to do some research and because I think a lot of the time you guys might just go off, hey, I kind of that's a good energy, I like that, I'm going to go with it. But I think sometimes we can sell too quick. So it's almost like, if you think about it, like dating if you were to go on a, I say this I haven't been on a date in years because I'm happily married. But a new date, right, if you're going on a new date and they took you for dinner, then they were straight away like you know, let's go. You might be like that's a bit forward. I think it's the same with business. I think they have to get to know you a little bit. So that sales journey I feel has to involve a lot of nurturing. So a sort of a great sales journey is get a good lead magnet. Whatever that looks like. It could be a video, it could be a pdf. Don't spend too long on it, two hours max. Have a nice lead magnet that flows really nicely into more of you not necessarily selling, but just more of you. And so in a email nurture, I would always say, hey, if you've done a podcast, link it so that they can hear you. Or if you've got a YouTube, link it so they can see you and just take them on more bits of you. Where can they discover more of you? To then go. I feel confident about what this person's offering me. I'm interested to either have a conversation with them or buy something from them. So I think the nurture part is is is really crucial in that sales Journey. Um, in terms of how you get that nut, get them into nurture again, it's like you could do master classes. You could do just popping a lead magnet at the end of a podcast interview that you do, or in a Facebook group where you're talking to somebody and you say, hey, I've got this great thing. We want to make it so that it's not too forced but it's also offering value. So the more you can offer, I think, the better.

Mills: 17:43

I'm not one of these people who don't like giving things away. I think give as much away as you can Because the chances are is that the part when they need to work with you is the implementation part, like they could actually probably just Google anything, right, anyone could Google anything. I could Google how to mend my car. It doesn't mean I want to, it doesn't mean I want to go and do that. I'd much rather just send it to a mechanic and they can do it. So it's like, yes, that information you can give it to them. The implementation, the how to, the kind of more nuanced version of getting them to that goal, is where they need you. So don't be scared to give things away.

Camille: 18:20

Yeah, that's good advice, and I think you're right because we live in the age of information where literally there's a YouTube video on everything. My husband finished our basement off of a YouTube course that actually someone sold and he did it brilliantly. He wasn't a DIY guy and he figured it out. But having that resource of someone that you trust and you've seen the journey of what they've done and you want to mimic, I would say that would be my number one advice is don't take advice from someone unless you see their lifestyle and the way they've built their business and you're like Ooh, I want that too, because otherwise, what are you? What are you trying to achieve? You know, like definitely coming up with the end in mind, wouldn't you agree?

Camille: 19:05

Are you drowning in your to-do list, stuck in the day-to-day tasks that keep you from scaling your business? You didn't start your dream to be buried in busy work. You started it to make an impact. That's why I am here to help you find how the truth and the beauty of delegation will help you to reach those goals much more quickly. I am offering a free discovery call to help you identify exactly what you need to do and how to find the right virtual assistant, which are actually I have many graduates from my course 60 Days to VA who are masters in many, many different skillsets so that you can find the right virtual assistant for you and you're able to be the CEO that you are meant to be. Imagine focusing on what you do best while a skilled VA handles the rest. It's time to ditch the overwhelm and step into your next level of success, and you can book your free call below at camillewalkerco. We can build your dream business together.

Mills: 20:06

A hundred percent can build your dream business together 100%. And actually, what's really interesting is, I think it's okay to find people who do things better than you. It doesn't matter what their age is. Yeah, like, I've worked. I'm 47, nearly 48. You don't look it, thanks. Yeah, oh, I'll take that Thanks. But I've worked with some amazing mentors, business mentors who were like in their late twenties and I always giggle to myself but I'm like, but they know that they've got a skill, they've got a skill and so don't be afraid to get help in that, whether, whatever that looks like, it could be that you want to have a podcast manager, it could be that you want a copywriter I'm I'm all about finding other people to do the things that I'm not so good at, so that I can get on and do the things that I am good at and that was always yeah, that was always.

Mills: 20:56

My aim was like I don't want to be the person who does everything. I want to be able to just stay doing the things I love. Yeah, um, and the right people I think the right people will pay for your service and the wrong people won't. And you don't want those.

Camille: 21:10

Yeah, and not to make it personal, because if you get wrapped up in that, that can bring you down and stall you and you end up stalling yourself way more than just doing the thing and saying, oh well, that wasn't a good fit, and you move forward A hundred percent, A hundred percent, that's good advice.

Mills: 21:26

It's like don't don't take it personally yeah.

Camille: 21:29

I would love to hear some examples of I guess what's the word I'm looking for Like I was going to say like a victory story, but what I mean is examples of people that you've helped generate a lead magnet through organic lead generation. That's worked well for you.

Mills: 21:49

Yes, totally For them.

Camille: 21:50

So I would love to hear some examples.

Mills: 21:53

So actually, the first one that comes to my mind is I have a client. She is a Pilates instructor and she has a membership and she's brilliant on Instagram, like she does most of her sales through Instagram. And I kept saying Amy, you are leaving money on the table. You need to. You need to grow your email list and find people who aren't just seeing you on Instagram because, also, you've got to. You don't want to rely on the algorithm. And she said I can't make a lead magnet, I don't know what to do. So we broke it down and I was like you have got so many videos, because that is what you do. You have a membership with tons and tons and tons of videos. I was like get a video and you're going to offer that as a taster. And so we created this funnel, which was the taster, and then it led to a seven week course and I'm all about trying to do the tech first. This is how I work is like I'm going about trying to do the tech first. It's just how I work. It's like I'm going to try it.

Mills: 22:51

And I think she just was so overwhelmed with like the whole. She was looking at step one to a hundred and going, oh, I can't do this, whereas I said let's just start with step one, two and three and then we'll move on to step four, five, six. And so we broke down like what did her email sequence look like? Was she going to sell? What did that look like? And within two days and we did work quite closely together doing it within two days she had something set up. She didn't need to rerecord anything, she just had it, and literally within 24 hours she'd made the equivalent of about $800. And she was like, oh my God, why didn't I do this, like a year ago? I was like, right, so it's like I would say, like send the damn email or try the thing. Yeah, it's like, if you don't, you're still just staying where you are, and we, we don't want to stay where we are, so, so that's a good example of a lead magnet that was just waiting to go. It was just waiting to be sold.

Camille: 23:47

That is so great, and I'd love to know as well what is for pricing, because that's a question I get a lot when I coach people through. Something like this is they're like oh, what do I start with charging? I don't know what to charge or if they're used to giving it for free, or they're used to working by the hour at an hourly rate. What's? Your advice with those generally? Do you have a rule of thumb at an?

Mills: 24:07

hourly rate. What's your advice with those generally? Do you have a rule of thumb? I don't know if I have a rule of thumb, but something that I do to help with pricing is using something like Toggle. I don't know if you're familiar with Toggle. It's an app that basically is telling you exactly what you're doing, the minutes, seconds that you're spending on things. Just toggle your day and see how much time you're spending on certain things to be like actually do you know what? I don't need to charge myself out at $10 an hour because that's what it's coming out at with all the work that's going in. So I'm not saying that you translate that to your clients, but it's like for your own awareness. Just actually work out how much time you're spending on things to feel like is that worth it? Am I underselling? Most people will undersell rather than oversell.

Mills: 24:59

I think, when it comes to entrepreneurs, we tend to go, okay, well, I'll just make that cheaper. Well, I'll just make that cheaper. But actually making things cheaper does not mean it will sell, because I would say you have to sell a freebie. You think, oh, it's free, everyone's gonna download my freebie. But they don't right, yeah, a, because we don't want them to because we don't want to serve everyone. But b even your idealist, ideal client still isn't downloading your freebie and you're like it's free, why are you not taking it?

Mills: 25:28

So when I think of pricing, I also think of if you were to buy. Okay, let's just take it to an everyday thing. If you go to a grocery store and there are blueberries for sale and one of them I'm just using like British currency and turning it into dollars, so one of them is like $3.50 and one's $1.50. And you look at them and you're like I don't know, they kind of look the same, but the $1.50 is probably going to go out first. It's going to go off out of date. I'll go with the $3.50 because they look bigger and juicier. They're probably the same thing. It's your perception of it. So it's like if we always are just like, hey, I'm just super cheap and I'm super by the hour, you're going to lose people who are like, oh, I'll just go for the, for the other version, because it's probably going to be better value.

Mills: 26:24

So I think that has to come into it as well. That doesn't mean we just all charge really expensive, but it's just a few things to consider, to like, put into the mix, the cake mix, what goes in? I'd say all of your training. How much have you spent getting to where you are today? That has to be counted and factored in how much you actually spending doing the things that you are doing to get you there, so again using toggle. And then, what kind of idle client do you want? Do you want clients who are like, ready to pay, happy to pay, or do you want clients who want to haggle? I know which ones I want.

Camille: 26:59

Oh, I know, I know. Okay, this is another timing question With your emails. You referenced that as having you know your freebie and then your emails. How many long? How many emails in general? I know these are very. These can all be manipulated different ways depending on the scenario. But in your ideal generalization, how many emails or how long should we nurture someone before we try to sell a product?

Mills: 27:28

long should we nurture someone before we try to sell a product? Yeah, that's, it's great to answer that, because I think that you can collapse time without needing to even sell. So you can just be like here's me first email, here's your thing, here's your freebie. Second email hey, here's, here's some more exposure to me. I'm helping this person with that on this podcast or this YouTube. Or here's an article I wrote, again collapsing time, so that they start to binge you, hopefully, binge watch or binge read.

Mills: 27:54

I always think five emails is a nice flow. I tend to do them every day if it's from a lead magnet, and I tend to set to drip feed in about three or four, but that's always with a PS. Hey, ps, if you're ready, there's something I've got for you. And then the last email. I'm usually driving them somewhere. So either to have a conversation with me like I really enjoy, sell by chat, which is where I get them to start a conversation with me, and that's usually with a call to action Like hey, if you want results, like Julie, then DM me the word yeah, strategy. And then hopefully they DM me and then I can just be chatting hey, where are you in your business? Tell me a little bit more about you and that's how I like to get my higher ticket clients. If it's for a service or product that's digital or something that's a little bit, may not require a conversation.

Mills: 28:46

I would drip feed by about email four and then in email five I'll focus just on that solution for them. So yeah, about five, but again, if you do more, you do more and if you do less, you do less. Just the shorter the time or the shorter they have of you, some people may need longer, as long as you're then taking them into some kind of I always call it like a master contact list where they finish the sequence, they're then going into somewhere and you're not forgetting about them. They're getting regular emails and I would say once to twice a week is perfectly acceptable. I think anything more I would probably say is a lot. But again, there's a difference between Brits and Americans with this. I don't know how many emails do you usually if you, if you sign up to something I think I've had somewhere, I've got like five a day and I'm like whoa.

Camille: 29:44

Oh, yeah, I mean, I think that for sure, if someone's selling something hard and it's like morning, noon, night and you're like leave me alone, leave me alone. Yeah, I think that that is too much, unless there is like one ticket thing that you're you know it happens once a year Like that's fine, absolutely, and maybe it's closing, sure, yeah, yeah. Otherwise I'm like once a week is great. Yeah, yeah.

Mills: 30:06

Yeah, it's a little bit like. It's like that dating analogy Like you don't want to be, you know, jump into bed with me that quickly.

Camille: 30:13

So yeah, I'll just get to know you first, give me you know I would suggest for everyone listening to, and it's interesting because I have different freebies on different websites where I have like discover your why, where it's like finding your purpose and connecting with would you want to start a business. And then I have another that is the mom balance playbook, where it's, you know, figuring out ways to find better balance and in your life. So I'm curious, what is your freebie? Cause I'm sure you have something for everyone listening. And then everyone listening pay attention to mills emails, because she'll show you how to do it. That's another thing to do is watch for the people that are doing it well, because that's a case study right there in and of itself is pay attention to the timing you like or the amount that you really connects with you and feels organic and natural.

Mills: 31:06

A hundred percent like that awareness piece. I think is so good to just be aware of what you like and model yourself on that, versus what someone's told you to do. I don't like being told. I'm always like that. I'm anti that. So I have a lot of lead magnets that I. I play around with things, so it kind of depends what I'm launching at the time as to what I might push.

Mills: 31:35

I will say one thing about lead magnets if they are a cold, or make sure that they are really for a cold audience, a lot of the time business owners make the mistake of making a lead magnet with the idea that someone's willing to spend seven days doing a journaling exercise. They won't right, they don't know you, they're not going to give you seven days. They'll give you seven minutes if you're lucky. Right, that's so, yeah, so it's always like for a cold audience. It almost just needs to be quick and easy and then you nurture um, if it's for a warmer audience, yeah, you might get seven days from them, and so I always think challenges are a little bit challenging for a cold audience. Maybe three days is fine, but five you might find people aren't staying, and so I have lots of different lead magnets I have, and it depends as well on which part of my audience I'm trying to sell to. So I tend to categorize my audience and people they generally know. I don't make it super clear that it's like level one, two, three, but if we're just for argument's sake going to categorize it like that, level one might be at a stage in business where they are happy to come to like a workshop or an in-person event or a paid, a small low ticket paid thing, and so I might have a lead magnet like how to get the best hooks and captions for someone who might be at that stage in their business. For my higher ticket coaching, I might talk about um, looking for higher cash months and you know 10k months, which is more of a hook for that type of client, and so yeah it's.

Mills: 33:18

I have a few different ones my general Instagram one, because I feel like that kind of covers everybody. I have two on there. I have a hooks one, so it's all about captions and hooks, and I have a higher caliber client one, so it's like how to attract higher caliber clients and it's an audit. So they're both quite easy and quick and don't require a huge amount of commitment from the cold audience and then the nurture sequence again is both different for both, because I'm really it depends where I want to take them.

Mills: 33:50

So when I look at a lead magnet I will always say start at the end result where you want them to buy. What is it, what is that? And then work backwards and have this really beautiful through line that matches your end result with the lead magnet. So if I was going to do captions and hooks as a lead magnet, there's no point me then doing something on podcasting as the end goal, because they'd be like what? That doesn't make sense to me. So start with the service that you were trying to sell and kind of reverse engineer it.

Camille: 34:28

I love it. That makes all the sense to me. Yeah, yeah, I love that so much and I think it's interesting to to create different journeys for for different things that you're trying to offer, because it is it is different, and recognizing that is really important.

Mills: 34:43

Yeah, yeah, and don't get too bogged down. You know it's like do two hours max on your lead magnet and then just send the damn thing Like I'm always like just get it out, you can change it.

Camille: 34:54

So, looking back, if there was someone listening right now who is very beginning or maybe they're not, maybe they're in the middle and they want to come up with something new what advice would you have for them to just get the thing out?

Mills: 35:07

Yeah, again, it's goes back to that listening or understanding where your client is at right now and what they think they need. So, if it's a diet, talk about here's five things to eliminate to lose weight, versus. I'm going to give you a breathwork exercise that's going to help you regulate your nervous system. They won't go for that, they just want to lose weight. So go with that kind of almost like market research, go to and solve the problem that they're having right now and start there. If, whether you do like a video or a PDF or a checklist, again, make it quick, easy to consume, not a huge amount of commitment from them. They don't need to spend hours doing it because you've lost them and and you know what, ask chat gpt for some brainstorming ideas. Chat gpt is good enough.

Mills: 36:04

Yeah, I use something called claude, which is I've heard of. I've used claude, yeah. Yeah, claude is really. I feel claude is very good for creatives, so I like using Claude to just get some ideas. So I might say hey, claude, I feel like I'm having an affair with Claude. Hey, claude, help me out here. This is, you know, my client has this problem. I'm selling this service. Help me with five, five ideas for a lead magnet and see what he comes up with.

Camille: 36:36

Oh, I think it saves so much time. I love it so much. Well, that's amazing. Well, I have had such a wonderful chat with you. I've loved it so much. There's two questions that I ask every guest. The first is what are you reading, watching or listening to? And the second is what's a motherhood moment you'd like to share?

Mills: 36:54

Oh, my goodness, Well, I have an unhealthy obsession with true crime. Oh, yes, I literally I feel like in a past life I was a detective, so I'm listening to. At the moment I'm listening, I just listen to podcasts. That's my main thing. I read when I'm on holiday and I'm not on holiday yet, so at the moment I'm listening, I just listen to podcasts. That's my main thing. I read when I'm on holiday and I'm not on holiday yet. So at the moment I'm listening to something called Up and Vanished, which is an American podcast, familiar with it. Yeah, so that's what I'm listening to.

Camille: 37:24

And then a motherhood moment that repeat a motherhood moment, any motherhood moment, any motherhood moment you'd want to share.

Mills: 37:32

oh, my goodness, could be fun, it could be heartfelt, it could be a learning experience, anything well, I am married to a um, somebody who does iron man, which is like long distance triathlon, so he's always like do, do, do, do, do. And we went on a family trip when the kids were really quite young to South Africa and he was like right, we're going to climb Table Mountain. And I was like this is going to be a challenge. I think they were like six and seven, but my youngest was just like so gung ho, and anyway she did it and we, you, you know it was great.

Mills: 38:14

But a couple of days ago we watched the blog of the vlog because my husband, I filmed the whole thing and just the funniest thing was that my 16 who's now 16? She was just like oh, my god, all I'm talking about is how you haven't done a French plat in my hair. You weren't taking in anything, you were just like bitching about the fact that you didn't have a french plant. She was like I missed the whole, like the whole moment of climbing table mountain. I was like that's life, honey. That is like yeah, but no, they've. They've always been like super adventurous and I'm always so proud that they just go for it because there's no way they couldn't, not because of my husband being so like he's like a tiger mom, but a dad I don't know what the expression is like. Do you use the expression tiger mom?

Mills: 39:02

uh, mama bear is what we say more often yeah, okay, yeah, tiger mom is more, is more like um a kind of pushy, a pushy mom, like the soccer mom, maybe.

Camille: 39:15

Oh, okay.

Mills: 39:16

Yeah, she's like come on, you can do it, you can do it. Well, my husband is like that. So they've always just grown up being like super adventurous and just saying yes to everything, and I'm always like that is going to help you for the rest of your life. Absolutely, you're going to be sorted, even if my eldest still is a diva, and likes her hair to be perfect.

Camille: 39:35

Hey, there are those core things that stick with us. That's awesome, exactly, exactly.

Mills: 39:40

Well, this has been so good.

Camille: 39:42

I would love for you to share with the audience where we can connect with you more, and I'll share the links below as well.

Mills: 39:47

Yeah, thank you. No, so, um, I have a weekly podcast which is called soul leaders. Uh, so, yeah, please, that's weekly marketing and sales tips. And I hang out in instagram mainly. That's like my place to be. So I'm mills, underscore gray. Just come and say hi, I'd love to, I'd love to chat. I'm, I'm, I love it, I love a chat, I love a voice note. So, yeah, connect with me on Instagram. That would be amazing, and I will send you a link to a freebie. Then you've got one, okay we'll do it.

Camille: 40:16

Yeah, thank you, thank you. Thank you. This has been so wonderful and I'm sure we will stay in contact and I look forward to that. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for spending your time with me. If you found this episode inspiring or helpful, please let me know in a comment. In a five-star review, you could have the chance of being a featured review on an upcoming episode. Continue the conversation on Instagram at callmeceopodcast, and remember you are the boss.