“Call Me CEO” is your master-class on innovation, creativity, leadership, and finding YOUR perfect balance between motherhood and entrepreneurship.

Have you ever wondered how you can turn chaos into calm in your home and business? In this episode, Camille welcomes Jenna Hermans, the co-founder of Be Courageous and the author of Chaos to Calm, where she helps individuals and businesses implement tools and systems to change chaos and overwhelm into calm and joy. 

Jenna shares her journey from getting married to navigating motherhood and becoming an entrepreneur. She talks about how she handled the transitions and how she was able to establish systems to bring organization into her own home and how she was able to help others through her five pillars.

If you’re interested in transforming the chaos into calm in your own life, tune into this episode to hear Jenna’s advice on how you too can break free from overwhelm and find joy in the live you’ve created.


Interested in becoming a virtual assistant? Join the 60 Days to VA Course: www.camillewalker.co/VA

 Access the 5-day email sequence to help you discover your purpose: www.callmeceopodcast.com

 Purchase Chaos to Calm at: www.jennahermans.com/book/


Connect with Jenna:

Follow Jenna on Instagram: www.instagram.com/jennazhermans

Follow Jenna on Facebook: www.facebook.com/ChaosToCalmBook

Follow Jenna on LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/jennahermans

Visit her website: www.jennahermans.com

Connect with Camille Walker:

Follow Camille on Instagram: www.instagram.com/CamilleWalker.co

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Right. And I love that you talk about values because it's efficiency for what purpose? And it's so that you can live into your values so that you can come from a place of groundedness so that you can show up as your best self everywhere that you go.



So, you want to make an impact. You're thinking about starting a business sharing your voice. How do women do it that handle motherhood, family, and still chase after those dreams? We'll listen each week as we dive into the stories of women who know. This is Call Me CEO.


Hey, did you hear the news? 60 Days to VA is no longer something you have to wait for to enroll. I'm actually starting to bring on students one by one. It's a very personal interaction where I do a discovery call with you to see if 60 Days to VA is a good fit for you. Because in the end, on the flip side of things, I'm starting to do matchmaking with CEOs who are looking to hire virtual assistants.

So, if that's something that you feel like is a good fit for you, you want to become your own boss and start a business that you can do on your terms and with your schedule, so you can spend that purposeful time with your kids, reach out to me. You can book your time at www.camillewalker.co or you can DM me at @camillewalker.co or @callmeceopodcast. And we can set up a time to chat. I can't wait to talk with you.

Welcome everyone to Call Me CEO. This is your host, Camille Walker. And today, we are talking about taking chaos to calm with Jenna Hermans who is the host and writer of Chaos to Calm, the book that she just completed. And it is all about five ways busy parents can break free from overwhelm, which, hello, that's every parent. Who does not need this book? Because chaos is the name of the game.

And I feel like none of us felt that more than when the world shut down and we were revolutionizing our lives, taking a step back at what we needed. And now, the gears have clicked back up where we're now back into that chaos zone. And how do we get back to some of that Zen of realizing what we can let go?

So, Jenna, thank you so much for being on the show today. I'm so excited to see where this conversation goes.

JENNA [2:28]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk with you.

CAMILLE [2:32]

Yeah. We are already BFFs, you guys. We've had a few chats. And I can tell you Jenna has a heart of gold. She has a few things going on. So not only has this book just been launched, but you run a business with your husband. Tell us about that.

JENNA [2:47]

Yeah. So, I'm the co-founder of Be Courageous, which is a transformation agency founded with my husband six years ago. And we work with organizations, large and small, with infusing courage into their companies. And so, we go out through the executive level, through middle management and startup level, working with the organizations to infuse courage into the culture of your culture transformation, workshops, events, group and individual coaching as well.

CAMILLE [3:17]

So amazing. This is a thriving, amazing business. What gave you the gumption to think, "oh, and now, I will become an author. I should write a book?" How did you find the resources and what inspired you to write Chaos to Calm?

JENNA [3:34]

When I started writing, I didn't realize that I was going to be writing a book. It was just writing down what I do in our home tangibly as well as mind shifts that make my home run a lot more smoothly. And I was inspired to write after we moved from Los Angeles to the Bay Area, had our fourth child, had just gotten married, and started Be Courageous.

And our fourth child moved into preschool. And as so many moms know when you go into preschool for the first time, we started exchanging stories with new families, "Where are you from? How many kids do you have?" All that kind of stuff.

And when I shared our story of having just moved recently with no support system here, with starting a business, having our fourth child, and all of the above, they all responded with, "Wait, whoa, what? And do you have hired help? Do you have a chef? Do you have a driver? Do you have all these things?" I said, "No, we don't."

But I did have a huge mental breakdown when our son was very little and after we'd started our business and crawled myself out of that hole. And that's what I started writing down because crawling myself out of the hole was my personal chaos to calm journey and what led to me feeling like I've got this under control. I've set a good example for my home and a great infrastructure. And that's what others are seeing and feeling from our family.

CAMILLE [5:06]

Yeah. And something that you didn't mention, but is part of your story as well is blending family. So, can you talk a little bit about that too? Because that's another layer. So not only are you starting a new business, you have a new baby, you're now moving, and it's also blending the family. So, talk about that piece as well.

JENNA [5:26]

Yeah. So, when I married my husband, he had three children from a prior marriage. And we got married and moved to the Bay Area with the three kids all in one fell swoop, it was in less than a year that we made all of those changes. And their biological mother was still living in Southern California when we moved up here. Eventually, she moved up here for a period of time, but then she left and now lives in Europe. And so, we've been full-time with them for close to eight years now.

CAMILLE [6:00]

Wow. I love on Instagram, there was a post that you shared, where it was something like, "I went to Jenna to step mom to mom, now I'm mom." What kind of transformation did that look like as far as the feel of it or the timeline of that? What was that transition like for you and for the kids?

JENNA [6:23]

I felt like an imposter for a long time because I was single and have no kids. And then, all of a sudden, had three, married, three kids. And so, going and showing up at school events and birthday parties with the kids, I felt like I didn't belong. And that was a struggle for me as I imagine it is for a lot of step parents showing up in that space as someone who's now this "de facto parent." And I use quotes because I became a mom before I was a mom and before I was emotionally, physically, psychologically a parent.

And so, it was a very strong learning curve. But what I did was I embraced that role. I took it on and really just let the kids lead the charge of the relationship they wanted to have with me, what they wanted to call me. And something that I realized on that was that they just wanted to be loved. It didn't matter the title. It didn't matter what they called me, what I called them. All they wanted was love. And the more love that they could get and the more inclusive that I could be for them, the more that they just felt safe and protected and wanted me there for those moments with them at birthday parties and school events.

CAMILLE [7:47]

I love that so much that it doesn't matter what the title is, that it's really about the emotion, and that you are showing up. You're being there and you're loving them. And you're letting them lead that process and that change. And if there's anything I've learned from raising kids, it's that they adapt a lot more easily than I think we imagine they will and that they are also very forgiving. And it may take time, which things do, but I love that you allowed them to be the leaders of that, where you're like, "I'm here, I'm showing up to love you and be here and be what you need me to be."

JENNA [8:27]

Yeah. It was definitely a hard muscle to start flexing and to build that muscle from nothing. But you just keep going at it every day, little bit by bit. And next thing you know, integrated, full loving family. And I know not all families are that way, but grateful that ours is.

CAMILLE [8:48]

Yeah. I have heard enough stories knowing that that is not necessarily the norm, that it's a lot of bumps and bruises and heartache. So good job. I'm just in awe of you. That's incredible. So, you start writing down efficiency, you start writing down habits, you're looking at community, communication, self-care. These become the five pillars of the foundation of the book for Chaos to Calm. How did you come up with those five?

JENNA [9:16]

What I had done after I had finished writing notes was then I started dissecting it, looking at it, you have to go to that balcony level. Go up high and look down and see the forest because I was in the trees when I was just writing so many notes all the time. For about a year, I just wrote notes, and then took the time, went to the balcony, looked at the forest and said, "What do I have here? What's going on?" And these themes emerged. And that's where the five pillars came in from those themes.

CAMILLE [9:49]

Very cool. I think that we should break down these pillars a little bit and the themes. The very first one that you talk about is efficiency and, oh my goodness, this is something that a lot of us I feel like we scroll through social media, we're reading blog posts, we read books. What are we doing with our time? At the end of the day, we're all given the same amount of time, how are we using it efficiently?

And I love that you made that your number one pillar, because really, at the end of the day, if we are connecting our values with how our time is spent, that is what efficiency is about when bringing true joy. So, let's talk about that. What are some of the main tips for efficiency that have helped you to bring calm into your life?

JENNA [10:41]

So, I break down efficiency into two buckets. I talked about time efficiency and energy efficiency. And it's between both being able to use them instead of them using you and being able to capitalize on your natural rhythms, the time that you have in the day, the spaces in between of the things that you already know that you have to do, to be able to lean in into those two different areas and to understand them, have the self-awareness, and go from there that you can really own your calm.

And I love that you talk about values because that's really for what purpose? It's efficiency for what purpose? And it's so that you can live into your values so that you can come from a place of groundedness, so that you can show up as your best self, everywhere that you go.

And so, with the calendar, with time efficiency, it's how you use that space in the day. How do you use the same 24 hours that everyone else has, but to navigate the responsibilities that you have and to build in the things that you know that are good for you, not just the things you have to do, but the things that you want to do?

CAMILLE [11:55]

Right. Honestly, at the end of the day with, I think for both of us, we coach, we are both coaching people and that is more often than not the number one thing we have to sort out is not only how are we using time efficiently, but how are you filling up space for yourself so that you have the energy to do the things that need to get done? Because the quality of life is going to be lacking if you don't sort through that.

So, for you, I'm curious, personally, what are some ways that you calendar efficient time for yourself? What are some hacks that you've been able to do with that?

JENNA [12:32]

So, I make sure that I have buffers in between every single thing that's in my calendar, whether it's a call or it's related to tasks, that I put in a buffer in between. Because one, we're moms, there's going to be inevitably a phone call or a text that shows up that someone needs something from us. And so, to be able to have the time in between like I have a podcast interview coming up. And so to have gone from that where I'm on do not disturb straight into another meeting or into another task that I know that needs my attention, I need to be able to have some space in the middle to take care of my children, or even just to transition for myself to close off and reflect upon what did I just do? Is there any notes I need to take down of the action steps that I want to move forward later? Whatever it is, or I just need a bio break or a dance break because I need to get my energy moving, depending on what I just did.

And then, also the buffers to be able to create space for the thing that's meant to be coming gives you a moment to set an intention, to be able to show up, and take a breath before going into the next thing. So, I can be refreshed and can show up again as my best self into the thing that I'm doing next.

CAMILLE [13:50]

I love that. It's funny you say that today because I just got back from a two-week trip with my son. And today is that way. It's like back-to-back to back-to-back. And then I realized, oh, good. I have a buffer in between around lunchtime, where I was checking in with the kids. We have summer schedules that we just implemented where the first few weeks of summer, I let them do whatever. They sleep in, they watch TV, they played video games, they go to sleep when they want. But after two weeks, we start a schedule. And at first, my kids roll their eyes like "Oh, no. Now, I'm going to have this task list to do." But I can tell you they thrive so much better when I have a list of things for them to accomplish in the day before they go play.

And it's every summer they know it's coming. And so, now that we're back into the groove of that, it allows me to have a day where it's my big call and interview and coaching day. And it's okay. The whole house doesn't fall apart.

So, I love that you talk about that because even within our own buffer of what we're doing, we can physically schedule that with Calendly or we can put it into our calendar and making the space. And I'm so grateful. I had even that 35, 45 minutes where I was like, okay, let's check on how things are going. Let's get a temperature of the house. Because things get crazy during the summer. Do you work from home or are you working in office?

JENNA [15:25]

I work from home. So, I definitely have all of the people here, yeah.

CAMILLE [15:27]

Yes. So, you know, we know what's going on. So cool. One of the things that you referenced a lot, which I loved and I very much agree with in efficiency, is having themed meal days, like themed days for helping you with grocery shopping and to help you have an idea of getting the kids involved with helping them with meal prepping.

What have been some of your favorite ways to meal prep? Because I feel like honestly, the mealtime, for me is one of the hardest things to tackle. So, talk to us about that a little bit.

JENNA [16:04]

Yeah. Meal planning was one of the very first tactics that I implemented after I found myself going through that breakthrough moment. I'm like, this is unsustainable, can't do this anymore. And that was the first thing that I did was implement meal planning.

CAMILLE [16:18]

Yeah. The food. Why is the food so hard? They are always hungry.

JENNA [16:21]

I think it's because they need to eat multiple times a day every single day for their entire lives. And it's just this endless task that never has a beginning or an end. It just keeps going. Yeah. That's the thing as a parent, as a human being, we need to eat and we need to do it every day. We need to do it multiple times a day. So, being able to tackle that and have that being one of the first elements of bricks of calm in the structure and the infrastructure was so helpful for me and I have found it's been really helpful for a lot of my clients.

Because every single day, 4 or 4:30 rolls up, "Hey, what are we doing for dinner?" It's like, man, I know it comes every single day. But yet, it's such a surprise every afternoon. It's such a surprise. So, we started, like you mentioned, that in the book we talked about, let's have some thematic, like every Tuesday, pasta. What was it? Taco Tuesday every Tuesday. Pasta every Friday. Pizza every Thursday, putting in these things, foods that we know that everyone's going to like, foods that we know that are also relatively easy to make and to prep.

And then, also we can have some fun with it after we have that consistency down, we know what we're doing, everyone feels comfortable and safe in the process and in the structure that we can add some flair. It doesn't need to be the same exact foods every single time, different sauces, different proteins, throwing in different kinds of flavors so that we can have variety within the structure as well.

And then, a couple times a month, I'll throw in a new recipe and we'll just throw it all off completely of like, "All right. We're going to go try something different." And even around the dinner table last night, we were talking about for summer, all the different kinds of things we want to do. And the family decided we're going to have different cuisines every week for summer. So, we're going to have Thai food one week where we have one night where we try a whole bunch of new stuff that we make at home. And then, we have Italian nights and French and all these various ethnic foods from different places. And so, to bring in that creativity, but also know that the times in between, we're still going to have that steady meal planning because I still work. I'm not a full-time cook, so I can't be making new recipes every day

CAMILLE [18:52]

Reinvent that wheel, yeah, exactly. I love that so much. So, going into the second pillar, we talk about habits. And you say to replace a bad habit with a good one and to take yourself away from the place and time that you do the bad habit. So, do you have an example of one that you could share of how you put this into practice?

JENNA [19:16]

Yes. Oh my gosh. So, two o'clock every afternoon, I get a sweet tooth. Especially when I was working in a corporate office.

CAMILLE [19:26]

Repeat that one more time. Right when you say sweet tooth, it cut out. So just start over every day at two o'clock.

JENNA [19:27]

So, every day at two o'clock, I get a massive sweet tooth every single day without fail, especially when I was in a corporate office sitting at my desk, doing my thing, two o'clock rolls around. And the first thing I would do is reach into my desk drawer and grab the chocolate that had been sitting there that I bought knowing at two o'clock, I'm going to want that and eating chocolate everyday two o'clock. And realized after my chocolate didn't feel better after eating this chocolate.

And realized one day, you know what? I need to do something different because the chocolate at two o'clock is not being helpful and I should try something else. And so then, I tried to other foods and realized, nope, that's actually not doing it either. And what I decided to do instead of having a different kind of food or whatever there at two o'clock, I'm going to get up and I'm going to go for a walk. I realized because it wasn't that I was actually hungry. I was feeling tired from the day, just naturally having an energy slump. And food wasn't what I needed in order to get me out of that slump.

And that was a bad habit for me eating generally chocolate and then it moved to cookies and whatever else and realizing that is not serving me and my greatest good in my life. So, I set an alarm at 1:55, right before two o'clock, to get up and go outside. And I created the infrastructure around me to support that. I made sure I had no calls at that time. I told my colleagues around me, "Hey, I'm going for my two o'clock walk. Be back in 15 minutes." And so, I laid out that infrastructure to make sure that I could support this new habit I wanted to build, which was to get up and leave the desk for a few minutes. And that really, really helped.

CAMILLE [21:30]

I love that idea. And that's so relatable to have those times where we're like, I need something and to go to food, but then realizing, oh, I actually don't need that. One of the things that I heard and this relates to what you just said completely is that movement or changing physically where you are and getting out of that. If you're stuck in a thought, move your body, that's what I'm trying to say.

And that could be anything. That could be a bad thought about yourself. That could be a thought about maybe your performance or maybe a thought about someone else. It could be a thought of something you want to eat or maybe a habit that you want to do.

So, I love that you replaced that with movement because that is putting it into practice exactly how they suggest you do because I feel like especially for me, I'm a big-time walker, which is funny, that's my last name. But I found that walking has been so therapeutic for me in so many ways and healing in many ways. And everyone can benefit from that because walking is truly what I like to call the washing machine of the mind, any kind of exercise. So, yes, I love that so much.

Okay. So, our next pillar is community. This is one you don't hear a lot about with creating calm and the chaos. So, let's talk about that. What do you mean by community being a pillar?

JENNA [23:02]

So, I don't know if a lot of your listeners have heard this or if you have, Camille, I believe it was in May, that loneliness, isolation was deemed an epidemic in our country.

CAMILLE [23:17]

I believe it.

JENNA [23:18]

Yeah. So, for mental health awareness month, this huge bombshell was thrown on us. And it came to light a lot during the pandemic of people feeling isolated, not just because they're in their homes, but realizing the system that we've set up for ourselves has been conducive to us feeling alone, for physically being alone, emotionally being alone.

And as parents, we especially have that when we go from being a non-parent to a parent in our society, we are set up in a way that parents are meant to go and do it on their own, especially mothers, your maternity leave, you go on maternity leave, majority of places don't have paternity leave or partner leave for whoever's not the pregnant person.

And so you go, you have your very short maternity leave, and you're meant to be out there doing your own thing, figuring it out solo on your own. And so, as a society, our culture is saying go by yourself, figure it out. And what's crazy is that we're all in the same boat. It's like we're all alone together. We're all feeling isolated with our infants, with our babies, with our toddlers. But we're all in it together and not utilizing each other, not being a part of it together, not realizing that we can lean on each other and support each other. Because, again, society says, nope, you're the mom, you go figure it out. You got this.

And so, community being a huge factor in creating calm comes from various different parts of life, not just being in motherhood, but the sense of belonging as humans. It's a fundamental for us is feeling a sense of belonging is created for our psychological safety, that we belong somewhere, that people care about us for exactly who we are, not just because we fit into a mold or that we're like everybody else.

And so being a part of a community, people that see you for who you are, who recognize you, who call out your name, when they see you, or remember your order at the coffee shop that you go into that the barista goes, "Hey, Camille. Here's your oat milk latte," whatever it is that you like to drink. It makes you feel good inside. And it gives you a sense of grounding and safety and security. And that is so important for calm.

CAMILLE [25:44]

Yes. It's so interesting that you say that because our culture really is built that way. I was in Australia, just these last two weeks. And one thing that was really interesting to me is that the way that they raise their children and there, it's literally done as a community. So, if you've ever heard an Australian person say, "Brother," where they call everyone "brother,” have you heard that? Okay.

That is from Aboriginal culture. And the reason why is because everyone around them is literally seen as their brother or sister. And what's really interesting too is that when a child is born, this isn't a mom and dad's child. It's everyone's child. And so, even their aunties and uncles, they call them mom and dad, too. They also call their aunties and uncles, mom and dad. And they call their grandparents above that, every older person is your grandparent. And so, it becomes this community hub where that is why they call each other "brother." They literally look at you as if you are my brother or my sister. Everything I have is ours.

And I'm like that is not America. That is not the way we were raised. And I think that that is so true that because their society is built that way, they really are built for success in community. It's everyone knows that they belong.

And so, I've actually been thinking a lot about that, about how do we create that type of feeling when it's not built into our culture? What are some tools that you have found that have helped to build more of a community feel?

JENNA [27:38]

One thing that's great about us being in a first world country, access to internet, and all of that is that there are online communities. So, it's not just in person, but there's also online. When I was breast pumping for my son and I didn't know anybody else who needed to exclusively pump like I did and I found a community online of exclusively pumping mommas and was able to feel like they understood where I was coming from because we don't post things all the time.

And there's even one particular story where I had just finished, pumping session completed, put my milk down. I'm going to go get the thing to pour it into and a fly, straight into my liquid gold. I kid you not. Oh my gosh. I was so angry. But the first thing I did is I took a picture, then I took out the fly, and posted it on my Facebook group of like, "Mommas, what do I do? Do I toss the milk? Do I feed it to the baby? What do I do?" It was a mixed bag of responses, for sure. But it was so great to feel like I have a place where I can go with this with people who understand what I'm going through. So that's one thing.

And I know for a lot of introverts especially that being online is a really great way to feel like you're connected with people. And then, you don't need to be physically in a space. And especially for a lot of my clients who tend to stay at home, who have spent a lot of energy with people that it's really hard for them, that being able to be a part of groups online or people who have gaming communities, that's a way for them to feel connected to people.

And one thing I wanted to share also before I go into another way of being able to feel connected and have community, but in the real-life setting is to talk about how it is related to mental health and depression and anxiety and that we're seeing so much more of the connection between the concept of feeling connected and feeling that sense of belonging and that you belong in the greater scheme of humanity, of society as well as nature, and that connection to mental health and how those are being shown more and more as being two very strong pillars that connect to each other.

Another way to feel connected is something that I used as well was when I was pregnant, I went to a prenatal yoga studio. And was able to be around other moms, pregnant. We’re in the same moment of life together and be able to talk about what we’ve got going on for ourselves whether it was what was happening with our partners during this process or just physically with ourselves, our anxieties, our wishes, our hopes that we have for after the baby comes. It’s such a great way to connect with people.

So, there’s a lot of meetup groups where you go to www.meetup.com. There are other ways online to look up how people are connecting, Eventbrite, etc. Instagram, I found a female entrepreneur group on Instagram that now I’ve been a part for I think it’s been five years and the group just keeps getting bigger and bigger in person that we meet up every month. And it’s just so amazing. There are ways to connect with people who have your same values or same interests like going to the local library and having story time and that’s another way. If you love books and you want your children to have a love of books, you go to story time and that value is built in there. And so many local libraries have that.

CAMILLE [31:26]

Yeah. I love all those examples, the in person looking online and, of course, with any of these examples, it does take effort on our part. No one's going to show up at our door and knock and say, “Hey, I hear you're feeling lonely. We have a couple programs available to you.” That just isn't going to happen.

I wish for all of us that it could be that way that we would have people knocking on our door, but maybe this is the knock on the door that you've been needing to hear, to remember what your interests and what your hobbies or what your communities could look like. So, I encourage anyone who's listening to this now to think about what is a community that you used to feel a part of or something you used to love and to reignite that? Because I guarantee there are ways to find that. So, I love those examples. Thank you so much.

Okay. And last but not least, this is something that is a very clear buzzword and need is self-care. I skipped communication. I'm so sorry. There's communication and self-care. But one of the things I loved about both of those is having authenticity in your emotions with yourself and your kids and knowing what your love language is. And so, let's just dive into that a little bit. We can do those together, communication as well as taking care of ourselves.

JENNA [32:48]

Communication is such a self-care technique that a lot of people don't think about because a lot of people think, my self-care looks like I'm going to go and get a massage or I am just going to go and download an app on my phone and listen to meditation. When in reality, a part of self-care is being able to communicate your needs and to understand and build relationships and trust between you and other people and also authentically being able to be honest with yourself and truly knowing what your needs are and how to do that with yourself. So, the two, I love that you wanted to combine them because they are so intertwined.

CAMILLE [33:38]

Yeah. I think that's really interesting. I love that you put it that way, that I think a lot of times, especially for women, we will take on the burden of a mental load or a feeling and say, I'm going to keep this to myself. And that by hiding that emotion, you're breaking or you're building a wall between you and someone else, whether it be a partner or a friend or a child. Where if you are willing and able to break down those walls and open up with communication and vulnerability, that really is taking better care of ourselves and it allows other people to do the same, which I think is something that it takes work. It's not always the easiest thing to do, but it really does help us to be healthier in the long run.

JENNA [34:26]

Yeah. And that reminds me around the concept of boundaries and being able to say no to someone else as it being a yes to you. A yes to your self-care is a no to somebody else, but being able to say it and communicate it and share it in a way that goes, “I care about you and I care about your ask and this is what I need to do for me. This is me taking care of me. And let's figure out another thing we can do together, another way I can support you or something or whatever. There are so many ways to be creative, but putting up boundaries is self-care and being able to practice that, which is so incredibly hard.

Especially as moms, we have found being able to say no to our children, to our partners, to the schools and the communities around us, and our in-laws and our extended family, we want be there and do everything for everyone, but to our own detriment. We're doing that. We're not taking care of us by saying yes to everyone and everything.

And by being able to say no to something else and yes to ourselves, we are role modeling to our children, to our community, to others around us, to our partners and siblings and whatnot. Being able to show them that it's okay and encouraged to say no for the sake of saying a yes to yourself.

CAMILLE [35:54]

Yes. I love that you said that because I was just about to go there. I had a friend whose daughter was having issues with a girl at school. They're in fourth or fifth grade and it was one of those situations where one was getting bullied or not treated well and. The daughter said, “I need to put up a boundary in our relationship where I will forgive you, but if you do this again, I don't think we can be friends anymore. And that's the boundary.”

And she came home and told her mom that she had said that. And she's like, “Where did you learn that?” She was so, so proud of her. She's like, “I don't remember teaching her that exactly.” But as we talked about it, she's like, “I think she must have heard when I was saying this about another situation with another person.” And our kids are watching and learning without us even realizing it a lot of times.

And so, to be able to say, “I have a boundary.” And I think the kids, it happened again. And she had to say, “This is the boundary.” And she ended up having to end that relationship. And as we discussed it, as moms, we were like, “Wow, that is so mature of her.” How many of us as adults can do that?

But the fact that it was already being mirrored and happening, it was just so beautiful. Because I think at the end of the day, if you don't put those boundaries in place, no one is going to do that for you.

JENNA [37:17]

And no one's going to take care of you the way that you need to be taken care of. And actually no one's going to take care of you because everyone needs to take care of themselves. Another topic I talk about in the book is the concept of circles. And so, our circles of responsibility, and this is borrowed from Richard Branson, he talks about this as well in his book called Finding My Virginity, how he founded Virgin and all the brands.

And so, the concept of circles is that if everyone takes care first themselves, I'm going to take care of me, make sure that I'm good. And then after that, I can expand my circle to my immediate family. All right, everyone here, everyone's good. Great. We can move a circle out. Let's go to extended family, to our neighbors. Who lives next door? Are they taken care of? Are they good? They are great. Let's extend out a little further. And then, you move into the broader community. Are they good or is everyone there feeling supported then? And then if we all did that, if we all looked at ourselves first and made sure that we're taken care of and then expand from there, everyone on the planet would be cared for and taken care of the way that they need to be cared for and taken care of because it would cover everyone.

CAMILLE [38:35]

That is eternal truth right there. Man, if we could start at the foundation and work outward, that is such a beautiful analogy. I love that. I love that perspective. This has been so fascinating and I'm sure all of you who are listening are like, “Okay, give me more. I need to read this.” Please tell our audience where they can find you and your book.

JENNA [39:00]

Thank you. So, you can find me www.jennahermans.com. My book is called Chaos to Calm: Five Ways Busy Parents Can Break Free From Overwhelm. It's sold everywhere books are sold online. If your bookstore doesn't already have it, you can ask them to get it.

CAMILLE [39:15]

Start over at it is sold everywhere where books are sold online. Start right there.

JENNA [39:21]

It's sold everywhere. Books are sold online and in every tangible bookstore as well. And if your local bookstore doesn't have it, you can ask them to get it for you. And then, you're supporting a local bookstore while getting an awesome book at the same time. I'm also on Instagram, LinkedIn, and all the things. Google Jenna Hermans and you will find me.

CAMILLE [39:42]

Awesome. We'll link to all of these resources below. Thank you for tuning in. We'll see you next week. Hey, CEOs, thank you so much for spending your time with me. If you found this episode inspiring or helpful, please let me know in a comment in a 5-star review. You could have the chance of being a featured review on an upcoming episode. Continue the conversation on Instagram @callmeceopodcast. And remember, you are the boss.


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