BUSINESS AFTER BABY: ESTABLISHING HEALTHY SLEEP ROUTINES | EVA KLEIN

EVA KLEIN [0:00]

If you are struggling in the sleep department and you think that there is no end in sight, I want you to know you don't have to live like this. Your little ones who are healthy can absolutely learn to consistently sleep through the night.

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CAMILLE WALKER [0:22]

So, you want to make an impact. You're thinking about starting a business, sharing your voice? How do women do it that handle motherhood, family, and still chase after those dreams? We'll listen each week as we dive into the stories of women who know. This is Call Me CEO.

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CAMILLE [0:41]

I've always said that sleep is the washing machine of the mind. So, what do you do when you're not getting enough sleep and how do you make big decisions, keep your patience, and move forward living the life you want to live?

Today my guest, Eva Klein, is going to share with us her journey of how she left being a lawyer behind, starting her own practice, and shifted gears to helping others find better sleep and better quality of life. Eva is a mother. She is a Canadian and has a heart of gold who is looking for others with how to create a healthy balance in their own lives.

Now, I can tell you after recording this episode, I am recommitted to getting my kids on a better sleep schedule especially during the summer months because it is so good for their health. It makes such a difference to the quality of your relationships as well as with your partner and it is so good, all of the gems that she shares with us in this episode. So, please grab a paper and a pen. There are some good notes and I also want you to really listen to the key of what it took Eva to find the guts and the ambition to shift gears after so many years of investing into her law practice. Let's get started.

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CAMILLE [1:58]

Welcome back, everyone. It is Call Me CEO. I so appreciate you taking this time to be here with us today. I know you're busy. I know you're exhausted. And that is perhaps why you're listening to this episode because today is all about getting quality sleep with my guest, Eva Klein, who runs the business My Sleeping Baby and also the blog. And she is the expert of getting your baby to sleep 10-12 consistent hours at night which pretty much brings her to sainthood in my book. And it's something we all want as parents because let's be honest, patience is a virtue and it's really hard to achieve when we're not getting the sleep that we need. So, Eva, thank you so much for being here today.

EVA [2:39]

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

CAMILLE [2:42]

Now, I want to dive into your story because we were just doing a brief chat before this and you were telling you're a lawyer before. You're also a mom. You've built this business where you�ve found your passion and purpose, walk us back behind the scenes. How did that come about?

EVA [2:57]

Yeah. So, basically, I got into this business completely by accident. So, as you mentioned, I'm a lawyer by training. I graduated law school. I went to the University of Western Ontario Faculty of Law and graduated back in 2011 and I gave birth to my first child a month after writing my last set of finals. And so, I finished law school, had a baby.

This first baby of mine though was what I liked to call my unicorn baby. She was that baby that just made me look amazing. It made me look like the best mom in the entire world. People would say to me, "Oh my gosh, Eva. You must be the best mom ever." And I was just like, "I know. Thanks. What can I say?" And so, then what ended up happening was I had my baby, I started working. And here in Ontario as part of getting called the Bar, you have to do what's called an articling term which is basically a paid internship. And so, I completed that paid internship at a wonderful fantastic government agency.

I got a job afterwards working in-house for a big academic hospital here in Toronto basically negotiating all the hospital's clinical trial agreements and research related agreements. And then, I went on to have another baby. My first two kids were just over two years apart and the second baby of mine was very, very different from the first baby. And I could tell it was going to be a very different journey in the maternity ward giving birth to her. I just knew. She was an hour old and I said to my husband, "This baby is different." And I wasn't wrong.

Unlike her older sister, she was very high needs. She needed to be held all the time. She was very strong-willed, cried a lot, and naturally was just not a good sleeper. And I've always been one of those people that really needs my sleep. Don�t get me wrong. All humans need sleep, but some need a little bit more and some need a little bit less. I've always needed a little bit more. And so, when she was four months old and waking me every 90 minutes all night long, I was so bloody exhausted that I felt like I was going to die.

And so, to take a step back, I was still on maternity leave at that point, so I don't mean to rub it in to any of your American listeners, but here in Canada, we get 12 months of maternity leave. Actually now, there is the option to take up to 18 months of mat leave where your job is protected. But back then, I was taking a full 12 months. And so, what I did at that time was I, first of all, had no choice, but to open up all the sleep books, figure out what the hell was going on, and get myself some sleep because this was something I never had to do with my older one. She just naturally slept, but this baby was literally making me a non-functioning human.

And so, I managed to make the situation a little bit better which gave me the clarity to have this eureka moment. And I thought to myself, "Hey. You know what? Why don't I use up the rest of my maternity leave to get my certification to become a sleep consultant to launch a side business?" That's what it was. That was the goal to just have some fun money where I get a new client, I go buy a pair of shoes. I change their life because their baby is now sleeping and they can all be sane again and everyone wins. I wasn't going to give up my law career or anything because who the hell does that? So, that was not the plan in the least bit.

And so, I launched said side business. I went back to my day job. Thankfully, my boss at the time let me come back to work three days a week given that I had two small children at home at the time and everything was going well. Except that this side business of mine not so surprisingly started growing much more quickly than I ever imagined because when you help an exhausted mom get her baby sleeping, take a wild guess what she does. She goes and tells everybody. "I found this saint of a lady named Eva and you need to hire her and she's going to change her life because she changed mine."

And so, it really didn't take long for me to say, "Hey. Oh my gosh. This business, this isn't shoe money anymore. This isn't fun side money. This is paying my entire credit card bill. This is real money that I'm making." And so, I saw very early on what kind of potential there was for this to become a full-time thing. But again, the Type A logical side of me was going, "I'm not going to do that anytime soon. I'm going to go about this my own pace. I'm not just going to quit my cushy hospital law job with benefits and pension and sick leave and everything. I'm going to do this on my own time."

And then, the famous saying, man plans, God laughs, because six months into my return to work, my boss pulls me into the office and says, "Eva, we need you back full-time. I know that we were allowing this part-time flexible arrangement, but we're too busy. We can't afford to have somebody here only part-time. We need you here in a full-time capacity." And that totally broke me at the time because I was so distraught. I was just like, "This is not what my plan was." My plan was to stick in this cushy part time job, grow my business, and then leave my job when I was good and ready. But that's not how it pans out.

And so, I was in this very scary fork in the road where I knew that if I were to continue to stay in my job in a full-time capacity, growing this business of mine that, by the way, had grown a lot in that six-month period was not going to be nearly as feasible. Yes, you can absolutely grow a business while working full-time. It was much easier while working part-time. And I was almost at that point where I could even start to think about going into this full-time, but then again, I wasn't emotionally quite ready. But this ultimatum forced me to say, "You know what? Here's my next plan. My next plan is I'm not going to do this job full-time. I am going to leave this job. I'll go find another part-time job with another hospital or a similar type of role elsewhere while focusing on my business."

But then what ended happening was, yes, I got interviews. So, I left that job. I got interviews elsewhere, but then the fact that I was now focusing full-time on my business because I didn't also have a part-time job, it meant that my business started growing even more because I had so much more time to focus on it. And so, even though I was getting these interviews, there was no more opportunity for a part-time job for me because by that point, my coaching and consulting business was completely full.

And so, that was when I started to have family members being like, "So, are you leaving law? So, you're just not going to do law anymore?" And my response was, "I don't know." But at the end of the day, as scary as this is, it makes so much more sense because at the time, my kids were three and one and this law job of mine that I left was all the way downtown. It was a 40-minute subway ride each way. The flexibility that was offered to me was taken away and this business of mine allowed me to work from home, allowed me flexibility.

I live a five-minute drive away from where my kids go to school and kids go to daycare and it was just so much easier. And I said, "You know what? I'm not giving up my license. I'm still going to keep my license. It's not going away anywhere. Worst case scenario is the business doesn't pan out and I can go and get another job. Nobody can ever take my law license away. But if I have something that's in the thick of growth mode and it allows me so many more perks, then why not just go with it?"

I want to emphasize. I�m a very Type A person here. I'm making it seem like this was such an easy pain free decision for me. I cried myself to sleep for weeks. Please, I want you all to know that this was not an easy thing. It was absolutely frightening. I just want to put that out there, absolutely frightening. But at the same time, I also had clarity in what made sense at that given moment and what I had to learn how to do was turn off that Type A brain of mine and basically say to myself, "This is not something where you can plan step 1, step 2, step 3, step 4." I had to find that Type B personality in me which by the way I think that Type Bs get a little bit too much slack because they're the ones that can be impulsive when they need to be. They're the ones that can make these quick ambitious adventurous decisions that just makes sense at the moment. And I had to find that side of me in that because, of course, the Type A person was like, "Oh my god, Eva. You can't possibly do this. This is so crazy. It makes absolutely no sense."

But the end result was that I haven't looked back. That one-year-old of mine is now turning eight. So, I think the moral of the story here is don't be afraid to explore options and then go down a route that you might have never thought to go down because you really don't know where it might end up. And worst-case scenario, you can always go back to doing whatever you were doing before. It doesn't mean when you take a left-hand turn somewhere, it doesn't mean that it's permanent. It doesn't mean that you're stuck in that world for the rest of your life. You can always change things up if it doesn't work.

But if I hadn't found that adventurous side of me, then I wouldn't be doing what I absolutely love which is to help exhausted parents get their little ones consistently sleeping through the night, so that they can be functioning humans again. And I can help people do that in a very short period of time, so it's unbelievably rewarding to be able to help people make such massive changes to their quality of life in a very, very short period of time. Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking on lawyers here. They do great work. I actually really did like my job. It was very interesting, but it can't beat what I'm doing right now. So, that's basically the story in a nutshell.

CAMILLE [14:08]

Wow. Okay. There's a lot to unpack here because I feel like taking that left-hand turn and really tapping into that more adventurous or more impulsive side, what was it that allowed you to create space for that? Was there a certain amount of time that you had to work through that? Did you talk with a lot of your friends, maybe your partner? How did you get to that space where you were like, "No. I can do this?" Was there a benchmark for how much income was coming in? Take me through that process.

EVA [14:36]

Yeah. So, this was definitely the Type A brain in me that had to logically explain why this made sense. So, when I had to sit down and think it through with my husband, there were a number of things that worked out in my favor in terms of making this decision more appealing. So, number one, when I said that I left my law job to go and explore this business, people often think that I was making $500,000 a year. I was managing partner of some massive Toronto-based Street law firm. I was only two years post-call. So, I wasn't in what we like to call the golden handcuffs where you're going, "I'm making so much money. How could I possibly give this all up?" I was at the very beginning of my career.

And so, even though I was putting potential income growth in terms of law on hold in the name of exploring my business, I didn't have to immediately take this astronomical pay cut that I may have had to take if I was five or 10 years post-call. There was that specific practicality that made it easier coupled with the fact that I was seeing consistent growth in my business every single month over that six-month period of time. So, that also made it a little bit easier for me to see.

The third practicality of the situation was actually how it played at my work. So, when I told my boss that I was not going to go back in a full-time role, that's where the legalities of what to do next became a little bit gray to them because he then said, "So, are you going to quit?" And I was like, "I'm not quitting. I'm not walking away empty-handed here. You're going to have to terminate me". But you see the politics of terminating someone who is six months in maternity leave doesn't look so good. And here in Ontario, hospitals are publicly funded, so technically this is a government office. And so, it took them a little while to figure out what to do with me. They were stuck because I wasn't leaving. I wasn't going to leave empty-handed and they didn't want to terminate a new mom who had just returned to work within six months. And so, until they did terminate my employment, I was able to get severance and I was able to get what I was legally rightfully entitled to. That bought me another couple of months.

And so, during that two-month period of time, I literally did the absolute bare minimum of work that was good enough quality work that wouldn�t get me in trouble, but my mind was not in my job because I knew it was just a matter of time before they were going to build up, I don't know, speak to whatever lawyers they had to talk to and figure out how to terminate. And so, for that two-month period, I literally focused 100% of my efforts on growing my business so that by the time the termination did come, I had grown that business even more, making it that much less scary to leave.

So, thankfully those practicalities lined up really, really nicely for me. But then, I think the big risk was when I started turning down interviews because that was when I said, "No. My businesses now full-time and I want to focus on growing this." That was when I had to take a few big deep breaths and go, "Okay. I'm really doing this. I�m really, really doing this. I�m not going to regret this. I really hope not, but I'm going to do it anyways."

CAMILLE [18:34]

For someone that's listening to you right now and they're thinking about perhaps starting a new business and getting clients where it's a one-on-one coaching situation or life coaching or something like you are doing, there are so many different ways you could do this. What would you say your number one bit of advice would be for creating client relationships where you are meeting and exceeding expectations and also creating a rapport, so that word of mouth client profile just builds and builds? Give us some tips with that because it sounds like you've got that down pretty quickly.

EVA [19:10]

Yeah. Word of mouth is huge. Word of mouth is how I initially got started. And so, the biggest piece of advice I would give you is that when you get that first client, that first customer, really love on them, really listen to them, really try and understand exactly what they need, so that you can best serve them. Pay attention to the language that they use. People will feel connected to you when you are using their language to describe their challenges. So, don't use business-y language.

Us sleep consultants we talk about like, "We're going to teach babies how to consolidate their night." That's not how moms talk. And then, they're not going to feel connected to you. It's not an incorrect statement. I help babies consolidate their night, but you know what else I do? I help them sleep 11-12 hours at night, so that they can feel like functioning humans. That's the normal English that my people use and then the former is the English that us professionals use.

I would really take the time to listen to your people, really try and understand their why. What are they struggling with? Why do they need you? And then, be able to figure out from there what kind of solution you can offer them and really love on them because you love on your people, they're going to refer you. People really have what I like to call referral personality where someone helps them out with something, they're going to tell their social circles about you as well.

CAMILLE [20:53]

Yes. That's so powerful and really that applies to every single service or product that I can think of. It's really using their language, using reflective listening, showing that you really care. And I think that authenticity comes through so easily without you having to pretend if you really do care. And they connect with that and they'll share that. So, I appreciate that perspective.

EVA [21:16]

Yeah. 100%. And don't be afraid to get personal. I was worried if I talk about my kids and my specific kids' sleep struggles, is that unprofessional? Because again, this is the lawyer in me thinking if I'm talking to a client, there's a certain level of professionalism that's obviously expected. But in this sphere where it's one-on-one coaching, consulting, you're working with people in this type of environment, I really think that people appreciate hearing personal stories and seeing that side of you. It'll make you more relatable and it'll allow people to as a result connect with you more when they see you're not just a robot that is an expert in your area.

CAMILLE [22:07]

Yeah. It's that vulnerability where you really connect and think, "Okay. This person knows. They've been there." And especially in this type of service that I can see how being a lawyer and then flipping to this side, it's really opposite sides of the coin where the professionalism is just totally different because the professionalism as a coach or someone who is giving this type of education or advice, you really want to connect with them on a personal level. So, I appreciate that.

Let's switch gears a little bit for those who are perhaps at home nursing a baby right now and wanting to transition into working whether it's more consistent work hours from home like getting stuff done around the house or going back to work and how do they establish routine and get back into that, so that they're getting good sleep?

EVA [22:58]

Yes. So, getting your little one on an age-appropriate daytime schedule is going to save you. When I was putting my website together and getting my certification to become a sleep consultant, that was happening when my baby was napping and when she went to bed for 7PM, 7:30 PM. So, I was using nap time and bed time while I was on maternity leave to get trained and start out my business. And I would not have been able to do that if she was napping for 20 mins. at a time in the car and going to bed for 10:00 o'clock every single night.

And that type of lifestyle especially for moms who are working or are starting up or growing a business is going to burn you out so quickly because it means that you don't get any time to yourself. And on top of that, your little one is going to be exhausted as well because your little one is human and humans also need sleep. But babies and toddlers have daytime sleep requirements. Naps are not optional. Naps are mandatory. And so, we need to make sure that your little one is awake consistently around the same time every day, giving you beautiful consistent reliable naps, so that they're waking up well-rested and, of course, so that you have some downtime whether it means to actually work or to just unwind, get things done, relax, exercise, take care of yourself, do whatever you need to do so that you feel like a sane human being.

I think a lot of people, they'll say to me, "I don't really care about the daytime. I just want my little one sleeping better at night." And the reality is that what goes on during the day directly impacts what happens at night. And so, if your little one is taking 20-minute naps in the car and is waking up five times a night, I can guarantee you beyond a shadow of a doubt that those two are connected, that the 20-minute car naps are directly causing, not even a correlation, they are causing your little one to wake up unnecessarily. So, that would be the biggest piece of advice that I would start with because without that schedule, all bets are off.

They'll say to me like, "I don't really like schedules. I like just going with the flow and the baby just sleeps on the go whenever." And my response is, "Is your 24-hour sleep situation working for you? If it is, fantastic. You're not going to hear a peep out of me. If it's not, then we're going to have to make some lifestyle changes. And they might not be major ones, but they're going to have even some minor lifestyle changes in the name of getting you some better sleep. But I promise that when you get your little one on that schedule and it means that you now have guaranteed downtime to work on your job, work on your business, engage in self-care, whatever it is, it's an absolute game changer."

I don�t know how people parent young kids without nap time. I really don't. My youngest is going to be turning three in September and I am dreading the day that he drops his nap because I know that that day is going to come fairly soon. And then all of a sudden, it means that on the weekends when he's home and not in daycare, we're not going to get that guaranteed downtime and definitely an adjustment. So, step number one in that department is absolutely prioritize the naps, prioritize the daytime schedule, prioritize an earlier bedtime for your little one and then everybody wins.

CAMILLE [26:57]

That's such good advice. My husband gave me the hardest time. He called me the nap Nazi because I was like, "No. This is nap time. We are home. I don�t schedule things during that time." That is a big reason why I was able to build a business from home because I was so strict about my kids getting their naps and it made for incredible sleepers. Now I feel like I'm getting to the point where my kids are older and they want to stay up later. And I'm having a hard time getting them to go to bed especially during summertime when the sun is not setting until 9 PM. What advice do you have for parents who are working with kids and needing them to go to bed earlier? And this maybe out of your expertise, but my teenager sleeps forever. But he was also a baby that slept forever. So, I'm like, "It's like he's a baby again." He just needs a lot of sleep because I know you help with kids as well.

EVA [27:48]

Yes. My zone of genius is the 0�5-year range, but I can tell you across the board that for the kids that might even be a little bit older, my girls are 10 and almost 8, so they're not in that age range anymore and I'll hear, "I don't want to go to bed. It's so early outside. It's still light outside." Blackout blinds are your best friend. You might even get two layers of blackout blinds to make the room dark enough because one blackout product by itself just might not do the trick. There'll be a lot of light coming in from the sides.

And then, the reason why that is relevant is because if your little one's body is exposed to all this natural light in those early evening hours, it can suppress their body's production of melatonin which is that hormone that makes you sleepy. And then, when your child's melatonin production is suppressed, that makes it much, much harder for them to fall asleep and stay asleep. So, if your little one's room is brightly lit and you want them to go bed for 7:30 PM or 8 PM, it's likely not going to happen. So, you want to go bonkers when it comes to blackout blinds.

I'm a fellow sleep Nazi here as well. That's also what my husband used to call me at first. But now he sees the truth behind it, how amazing it is. And then, look, in terms of your teenager, I'll just say for the record that it's not my specialty, but it is a known fact that when teenagers need a lot of sleep, they're going through so many growth spurts and developmental changes. And so, sleep really helps with that. Listen, when babies go through growth spurts, what typically happens, they eat, eat, eat and then they spend a few days sleeping because they grow while they're sleeping. So, the teenagers are no different. So, as long as your teen isn't going to bed incredibly late and then sleeping in the next day which might not work for school, summer camp, whatever it is they're doing, I wouldn't worry. I wouldn't worry if your teenager is sleeping more than he used to.

[LAUGHTER]

CAMILLE [30:08]

It's been an interesting summer. I'll tell you. I found out just yesterday that he's wearing a size 12.5 shoe. He just turned 13. So, he's totally growing a lot. So, for your 8- and 10-year-olds, what time do think is a good time for older kids? I'm just curious.

EVA [30:21]

My girls are both typically in bed somewhere between 8 PM and 8:30 PM. I think my 10-year-old, when I say she's in bed, she's not typically in bed with the lights off by that time because she's not typically tired. So, she'll usually be in her room drawing until 9 PM and then by 9 PM, we'd tell her, "Okay. You've got to turn out the lights and go to bed." But she absolutely loves to draw and so that's her quiet downtime in her room. Whereas my 7-year-old will absolutely be bed somewhere between 8 PM and 8:30 PM with the lights off and go to sleep and sleep until usually 7 AM the next day which is pretty average I find.

CAMILLE [31:05]

Yeah. That makes me feel better because those are more typical norms we try to achieve. I think with late night fireworks and things like that, you get off your rhythm, but then you just have to work back into it and just be patient with it because it's all part of the journey. But I'm curious. What has been the most rewarding piece of your job in this business?

EVA [31:24]

I have had numerous clients tell me when we're done working together, "Eva, I think you may have saved my marriage." And they're not being dramatic. They are really truly not. I've had people tell me, "Eva, my anxiety is now completely under control. My depression is so much more manageable that baby is sleeping through the night and I can take care of myself."

And all of these changes that I'm able to make with families happen in a very short period of time. I'm an Enneagram 8. I don't know if you follow the Enneagram at all. Okay. So 8s, we often struggle with patience. We're big personality people that want to see big changes fast and we are impatient when things don�t happen as quickly which is a character flaw. It's something that I'm totally working on, but I'm very grateful that seeing these big massive changes in a such short period of time, it feeds into my personality, my temperament which in terms of things that I just find so unbelievable rewarding and fulfilling.

That's not to say that when people make massive changes over a longer period of time that it's not rewarding either, but it's really unbelievable when someone tells you, �My anxiety is so much more under control now" or "My husband and I haven't had an argument in a whole week when we were arguing multiple times a day because we were both sleep-deprived and cranky and irritable and just fed up with life given how tired we were." So, getting that kind of feedback from people is so unbelievably rewarding. It makes my job so unbelievably rewarding.

CAMILLE [33:19]

Yeah. I'm listening to that and you're saving marriages and people's mental health. That is the quality of life. What wouldn't you pay for that? That's incredible.

EVA [33:29]

Or someone was telling me recently, "Eva, I was on the brink of losing my job. I was on the brink of getting fired because I was making so many stupid mistakes at work. I was just making so many careless errors that were all attributed to chronic sleep deprivation, no question about it. And now, I'm back in the good books with my boss because I'm not messing up anymore." That's huge.

CAMILLE [33:55]

Yeah. Right there, you're saving jobs too. This is everything.

EVA [34:00]

Because their brains are back.

CAMILLE [34:03]

Yeah. That is incredible. This has been so good. I love the steps you've given us so far for setting routine, paying attention to our daytime, following your passion, going after those impulsive gut instincts when you decided to take a new course. I'm so proud of you. Your story is so inspiring to me and I'm so thrilled to announce that we are going to be doing a live webinar on September 13th at 7 PM. Is that Mountain Time?

EVA [34:29]

Pacific Time, I believe. Yeah.

CAMILLE [34:31]

Pacific Time. Okay. That's Pacific Time. And that's how to get your little ones sleeping again which if you need more of that after hearing just a little bit of how this can change your life and transform it, please join us. I will have a link below in the Show Notes. And Eva, this has been so wonderful. If there's anything else you want to add to this, please give us one last bit of wisdom with following your gut and why you're so glad you went the route you did.

EVA [35:00]

Yeah. The biggest piece of advice I would give you is if you are struggling in the sleep department and you think that there is no end in sight, I want you to know you don't have to live like this. Your little ones who are healthy can absolutely learn to consistently sleep through the night. This isn't something you just have to grin and bear and suffer through until they're 18 years old and sleeping nonstop like Camille's teenage son. You don't have to countdown the days until they're teenagers. You can absolutely enjoy your kids when they are little and you can be completely well-rested and enjoy their moments to their fullest.

So, don't underestimate what your little one can do because I can tell you after working with more than 2,000 families to date that we can get your little one sleeping, even yours. Even yours, you know who I'm talking to right now. Regardless of how strong-willed or challenging they might be, we can get this all sorted out.

CAMILLE [36:03]

Wow. And I just want to reiterate that sleep I think is one of the best gifts that you can give your family as far as having more peace at home because I notice a couple of things. When they're not sleeping well and they're not eating well, those are the top two factors for fighting in our home or me not having good patience with my kids or fights erupting amongst each other. And I feel like there's so much good that comes from creating healthy sleep patterns. So, thank you so much for your time today. Please tell our audience where they can connect with you and find more information.

EVA [36:41]

Yeah. Thank you so much, Camille. So, you can find me at mysleepingbaby.com. I'm on Instagram and Facebook both @mysleepingbaby and please come and sign up for our upcoming live webinar where you're going to learn how you can get your little one consistently sleeping through the night, so that you can be a functioning human again.

CAMILLE [37:00]

Yes. We want that for all of you. Thank you so much for listening. We will see you next time.

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CAMILLE [37:14]

Hey, CEOs. Thank you so much for spending your time with me. If you found this episode inspiring or helpful, please let me know in a comment and a five-star review. You could have the chance of being a featured review on an upcoming episode. Continue the conversation on Instagram @callmeceopodcast. And remember, you are the boss.

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