180: How to Overcome Self Doubt, Overcoming Divorce with Sarah Williams Part 2

SARAH WILLIAMS [00:00]

I could feel myself elevating. I could feel the personal growth. Who I was was changing. I was standing taller. I was more confident. I was more bold. I was more courageous with my ideas and plans and dreams. My dreams got bigger.

[MUSIC]

CAMILLE WALKER [00:25]

So, you want to make an impact. You're thinking about starting a business sharing your voice? How do women do it that handle motherhood, family, and still chase after those dreams? We'll listen each week as we dive into the stories of women who know. This is Call Me CEO.

[MUSIC]

Welcome back everyone to Call Me CEO. This is Camille Walker. This is part two of Sarah Williams' story. She is the CEO of Framed! which is a subscription box e-commerce company. She also does coaching for people who want to start their own subscription box company themselves.

Part one is available. It is insane and packed full of so much gold, I am telling you, please listen to that one first. Because this one, we're getting into the nitty-gritty, the boiling tea. And Sarah is going to tell us how she developed herself and supported her family and also how she grew into her own CEO self, which also part of that journey was going through a divorce. And she said that she is more than willing to help because she wants to help women who are going through their own self-doubt or wondering how they can put themselves into that own place of stepping up to a higher version of you.

So, I'm so excited, Sarah, to have you in this part two. And thank you for continuing with me because I feel like we shared so many good things in part one. But this part two is really the heart of it, too. And so, thank you for being willing to continue your story. Can you please give us a brief intro of who you are. And then, we'll go right into the meat of it, assuming that people here have already heard part one?

SARAH [02:05]

Yeah, if you haven't heard part one, I'm in Texas, I have two teenagers. I have two businesses, two multimillion-dollar businesses. One is an e-commerce and one, it involves business coaching. And I think we're going to get a little more personal on this episode.

CAMILLE [02:20]

Yeah, thank you so much. And honestly, Sarah is so forthcoming and authentic with everything she shares, I know that this is going to be no different. And thank you for that. Because I feel like as women, it's hard to be vulnerable, especially in a space where you are the head of a company and as women, we have to put our best foot forward, or we think that there's ways that we have to be perceived.

But what we're all craving more than ever, and you're seeing this more on social media and through CEOs or company builders, that they are sharing the truth of the highs and the lows of what comes. And as a mother, that comes with even more packaging. We have the kids, we have the husband a lot of times or going through divorce or dating or whatever those things look like. So, thank you for doing that. And where do you want to start? This is your story. So, where we just left off.

SARAH [03:18]

I think as women, especially being in a male-dominated industry, and I say that my audience is 95%, maybe even 99% women, I have a few awesome guys in there and love them, but I think that this industry is very male-dominated, even though I teach a lot of women.

Because for so long, we were taught that business was transactional. And so, that's a lot of the mindset when we look at successful men entrepreneurs, they're very transaction-driven. They're very black-and-white-driven. And we are taught as women that we should hide our emotions, hold back our tears, fight through whatever we're feeling.

And I think that's unfair to us because we are built different. We are different than our men counterparts. And for us to be held to the same expectation, which was for so long made us really shut down who we were. It made us not show people who we are. It made us not show our vulnerability, not show our emotions, not show our passion because we were seen to be weak when we would show that.

And so, I think the way that I've been able to show up over the last few years, Camille, we have been through some of the hardest years, just emotionally, mentally, physically. And we're just trying to keep everything together. Honestly, everyone's just trying to survive.

And I think that what we have seen in the past online is just this perfect life. We've got the Lambos, and the jets and whatever. And come on, women could care less about that. Let's be honest. Most women could care less about that. That's not why we're starting our businesses. That might be why most of the men start their business because it's transactional. What business can I do that will make the most money? That's what they think about. That's how they're wired. And there's nothing wrong with that.

But for women, it's what business can I start that's going to fulfill my cup, that's going to let me use my passions to make money? And honestly, most of the women that I know just want to make enough money to have money, to help their husband, to provide for the household, provide extra money, or just have their own money.

And so, we're not out here trying to build a billion-dollar business, so we can have a Lambo and a private jet. And so, when we have been positioned to see that all over the internet, it feels icky. And it feels like it's not for us. And so, we're like, yeah, no, that's not for me. And so, we shut down.

But then, you've got someone like me, who I say this, I am nobody special. I'm like a normal person, I get up and take my kid to school every day, I pick her up from school, I don't cook much. So, we're getting takeout. And I'm just a mom trying to get through my days, every single day. And I've been able to just build a business that fills my cup and makes money to support my family. And in turn, I've been able to support other women in doing the exact same thing. And that has fulfilled me more than the original business that I started so long ago.

But I think that's what the difference is in the world. And we're seeing that more and more. As more women show up authentically, they could show up with no makeup, they could show up a hot mess, and we appreciate that about them. We are relatable to them like, if someone normal like that can build a multimillion-dollar business, heck, maybe I should try it. And we're giving people courage to step out of their comfort zone and do something that they never thought they could do.

CAMILLE [07:32]

Yes, I can relate to this a lot because I started as a creator blogger 12 years ago about the same timeframe you did. And it was that same question I got of how can I be at home with my kids and make money? And so, I wrote a course 60 Days to VA and for that very reason so that I could give that answer of, hey, build your own business and do your own thing. It is available.

But what I love so much is to the other side where I'm coaching entrepreneurs and women who own businesses to relieve the stress that is all on their plate and how to outsource and hire help, which is what we talked about in the last episode.

So, you and I are very much on the same plane of our purpose and also giving that fulfillment of helping other women find the purpose, find the courage, and breaking it down into actionable steps. What does that look like? And so, that's where we're going. So, on this journey that we're in here today in this episode, what would you suggest for people who are battling with that doubt or wanting to see the success but maybe not knowing where to start?

SARAH [08:42]

I battled that a lot in the beginning of starting my business. I was well-known locally, just in the community, because of where I had worked and connections that I had. But when I started to translate my business from an in-person business to an online business, I shut down.

The fear that I had of showing up on camera and saying something stupid or saying the wrong thing or looking dumb or just all these fears that would creep up in my head of unworthiness, I talk a lot about it in the beginning of my book, but it's this thing that overtook me. And I remember I had several business friends, and thank goodness for biz friends, especially biz lady friends that know what you're going through, but they are all extroverts.

I am the most introverted person in the planet, and you probably don't think that about me because I've talked your ear off for the last hour. But I was so introverted, and I would see them showing up live, and I would see their businesses growing, and I would see all these things happening for them. And I thought I can't do that. I can't go live. I can't show my face on camera. I'm not them. And I kept talking myself out of it, and I kept thinking, I'm going to grow the hard way, I'm just going to grow slower, I'm going to not be the face of my business, I'm just going to keep showing the cute things, and they'll sell.

And I finally gave up because I saw them really growing fast by doing lives. I thought, okay, I'm going to do a live, and I almost threw up the first time I did a live. And I was so nervous. I was like armpit sweating, and I was fanning my face, and I had to reapply makeup, and then tears were coming out of my eyes, the thought of hitting the go live button.

And I thought, why are you doing this? What is inside of you that is so afraid of this? You're successful. I was successful at this point. I built my business. I had employees. I was in my second location. What about hitting this damn button on the phone was stopping me in my tracks? And I really had to come to grips with just do it, it can be deleted.

And so, that was my motto, just do it, it can be deleted. Just do it, it can be deleted. And so, I went live for the first time, and it was terrible. And I panicked. And there were people live with me, and I just, "blah, blah, blah," stop. I didn't talk to anybody. I didn't slow down long enough to show them anything. It was awful.

But I took a deep breath. And I thought, dang, I didn't say all the things I wanted to say. I had been prepping for this in my mind for a month. And then, I got on there, talked for five minutes, and shut it down. I thought, no, I got to do this again. Go live again. Go live again. And so, I set this in my schedule every week. I got to go live. And sometimes, nobody was there. And that's okay.

And then, sometimes I would say, "Hey, business friends, I got to go live. Can you ask me about the shirt that I'm wearing? Can somebody ask me about the earrings I have on?" So, I didn't feel salesy all the time, "Can somebody ask me how they can become a subscriber?" So, I didn't have to just sell it. And so, I had these friends, and they would jump on live. And they were the only ones on there for a while.

And they'll be like, "Oh my gosh, I love your earrings. Where can I get those?" I'm like, "Oh, these are these red acrylic hip earrings. You can get them in the shop. Here's the link." And so, I was getting more comfortable, because I was just talking to my friends. And then, more people would show up that I didn't know. And I was like, okay, this is working.

And then, there was one Saturday, and I will never ever forget it in my lifetime. But I was live. It was Saturday morning. I didn't need the friends to show up anymore, because I had 10, 20 people showing up now regularly. And I saw the little thing, the ticker in the top of the screen that said I had 100 people watching me. And I freaked out. I was almost to the end of it. But I was so panicked. I finished early because I was like, "Oh my gosh, there's 100 people watching me." And I just stopped.

But what was happening was I was building this audience. People were getting to know me, the real me, not the fake social media me, the me that was a hot mess that didn't have it all together, that usually had a stray hair sticking out of her head or something was on crooked or whatever it was. They were getting to know me. And what I realized is that the same people kept showing up week after week. And so, it was building this community of people that maybe needed that in their life at that time. They needed something to do. They needed some entertainment, or they just needed someone to talk to because I had gotten really good at answering the questions in the chat and not panicking that somebody was talking to me.

And so, I started to just let go of the fears, realized I didn't have to be perfect. And I just started to show up as me. And once I did that, my business just took off. And it's something that I encourage my students all the time, and I see so many of them just paralyzed by the fact of turning that camera on. And I will tell them, “Start with a short video like a reel that doesn't have your face in it. Maybe it has your hands. Maybe there's a voiceover, so someone could hear your voice.”

Because I know and you probably know this too from your podcasts, but when someone hears your voice and repeatedly hears your voice, they feel very connected to you. Okay. So, let's start with a short 60-second video with a voiceover. Let's start there. We don't have to do face to camera to get started. Let's get people comfortable seeing our hands working with whatever we're working on. It could have been me at the sewing machine, putting something on the sewing machine. It could be me folding boxes. It could be me heat pressing a t-shirt. Whatever that was, I didn't have to have my face on it.

And so, I'm teaching them, let's baby step it. Let's get a voiceover, and you don't like the sound of your voice. You don't. You just really don't. So, you're going to have to rerecord that about five or six times before you're comfortable with it. But once you can get a routine into doing a video without your face with just your voice, then let's put the camera on you. Let's show your face. Let's do a live, it could be a 10-minute live, it could be a five-minute live.

We have the superpower as small business owners to connect with our audience the way big brands don't. And so, that is the cheapest thing we can do to build our business. If we don't want to throw a ton of money at ads, let's show up and connect with people because you can be you. You're going to find your person, and it just takes time. So, really just baby stepping it. And that was really how I got through that initial period of self-doubt.

And I still go through self-doubt, Camille, I self-doubt with showing up live, self-doubt with being worthy of having this big business that was growing out of control for me, self-doubt of being an expert and a coach. Who's going to listen to me? I'm nobody, I had self-doubt when I started that business. I had self-doubt when I got a book deal. Who's given me a book deal? For what, they want me to do what? I'm not a writer. I don't even read that many books, and they want me to write a book.

It just happens throughout our life. And that's the things I was going through and still continue to go through them. So, I think that we all deal with self-doubt. I think that we all go through periods of not feeling capable, not feeling worthy, not feeling like we can. But if we can figure out a way to push through that one feeling, it's going to lead to the next. And it's going to lead to the next, and you're going to look back, and you're going to say, wow, I've climbed that mountain of self-doubt. I had self-doubt with money when I started making real money. I had self-doubt with so many things in my life.

And I think that business is so personal. When you start a business, you don't know a lot of stuff. You're just on a wing and a prayer. And you're just doing the things that you figure out how to do along the way. You're Googling all the things. You don't know. And you get this confidence when you learn things. When I learned how to update my website, when I learned how to build an opt-in, when I learned these different things, that gave me courage. That gave me a sense of worth, and those little things, doing a live, gave me courage to do the next live. And then, it gave me courage to teach a video course as a business coach. So, all these things kept leading up to the next thing. And that's when things started to shift for me.

CAMILLE [17:48]

I agree with you that going through transitions and welcoming opening doors, and it's a lot of change. I've talked to a lot of people who have had to have therapy and a lot of mantras and things like that, because it's almost like a previous you dies or a new you is born as you're going through these opportunities and of this growth. I think people go through that when they're going through faith too or business or anything that's elevating you to a new version of yourself, a part of you is left behind. And I think that it's like shedding new skins, maybe that's a good way to say it. So, it sounds like you went through a lot of transitions and shedding of skins and changing into this new person.

SARAH [18:39]

It was a lot, and it was happening really at a rapid rate. And there was some points where I just needed things to slow down, so I could catch up because things were happening so fast. And I felt like it was like a hurricane was coming in. And I was just trying to swim, I was trying to stay afloat with everything and I know that it affected my relationships. I know that it affected my friendships. I can look back, and I didn’t have a lot of time for friends during this growth period of my business because I was literally working from sunup to sundown. And friends started to shift, friends that I didn't have a lot of common with anymore, it was harder, and friends like that, those relationships started to shift for me.

And I felt like something was wrong with me. And I was leaning more into these business friends that I had made along the way because they got it. They knew what I was going through. They know how hard it is to be an entrepreneur. And I call them regular friends that aren't entrepreneurs. There's only so many times that you can go have margaritas and queso with your regular friends and talk about business before they stop inviting you to come because they don't want to hear it. They don't understand it. They could care less about it. And so, I think it's important for every woman to have business friends because they really get it and they're supportive of you. And I found along the way that some regular friends weren't supportive of the growth of my company.

And the same with personal relationships. As far as my marriage, my ex-husband and I, we were highschool sweethearts, I had been with him since I was 17. And he was with me during the time of me not being able to pay myself and getting laid off at these corporate jobs and deciding to go into business for myself. And he was not once not supportive of that. He was like, “Whatever you want to do, I support it. If we can afford it, I support it.” And he was never not supportive of that.

But along the way, when things started to really rapidly grow for me, I could feel myself elevating, I could feel the personal growth. Who I was was changing, I was standing taller, I was more confident. I was more bold, I was more courageous with my ideas and plans and dreams. My dreams got bigger. And the problem was, and I tried so hard to make it fit, because now, we had this life. We could go do anything we wanted. There were times we had to put groceries back at the grocery store because we couldn't afford them. We live paycheck to paycheck in our early days so much. We went through the hard stuff together. Now, we have this beautiful life that we had built, and he didn't have to work as much. And we could do all the things. And yet, it still wasn't enough.

And as I was really growing personally, he was staying the same. And so, he could very validly say I changed. Absolutely, I changed. You don't go from being here to being the CEO of two multimillion-dollar businesses and not have growth, not have change. I was becoming more the me that I always wanted to be, but it wasn't aligning with the person that he married.

And so, he was really resisting the change. And he really didn't understand the businesses that I built because he didn't want to talk about it. He didn't want to be involved in it. He didn't care about it. So, it was this thing over here that was fulfilling me on a level that I had never been fulfilled before. And my life partner didn't even care about it.

And so, after several years, about five years of this business growth, and then just feeling empty, 27 years, I was with this man, and it was one of the hardest decisions that I had to make. He's the father of my kids. I knew nothing but him. I moved out of my parents’ house, in with him. I have always been with him. And so, here I am feeling like I'm out on an island by myself. I have thousands of students, I have thousands of subscribers, I show up on camera, and people love me. And I go home, and my partner doesn't even really want to talk to me. And that was probably the lowest feeling that I had. And it got worse before it ended.

And you talked about therapy. People go through therapy, I got so depressed. Here I was on top. I just got a book deal. I got a book deal. The first person that I called was my husband. And I said, “Oh my gosh, guess what happened to me? I got a book deal.” He said, “Cool. What’s for dinner?” Tears just flowed through my eyes. This is one of the biggest things that has happened to me. And you just asked me, “What's for dinner?”

In that moment, it hit me like a brick wall. He wasn't my life partner. He couldn't do life with me. He couldn't dream big with me. He couldn't support me. And he didn't have to be anything. I didn't need him to be anything but him, but he couldn't show up for me. And I spent every day of my life showing up for other people, for my kids, for my family, for my students, for my subscribers, for my employees, for my husband, and yet the one person that should have been showing up for me couldn't even do that, even in one of my proudest moments.

And that's when I knew. I got so down on myself. I'm so successful in all these areas of my life, but my marriage sucks. And I started going to therapy because I was getting depressed. I was gaining more weight, and I was just in this state of numbness, going through the motions, showing up, putting a smile on my face, building content, doing all the things. And I was successful, because that was the one thing in my life that filled my cup up. And I loved it. But I went through about a year's worth of every week therapy with a life coach.

And I made a comment to him in one of the first sessions that I did not want to walk out of 2022 the same way I walked into it. He said, “I'm going to hold you to that.” And it was the fall of 2022. And I said, “I need to be done with this.” He's like, “What does that look like?” And I said, “I don't even know.” And I was tears, and I was a mess. He said, “How would you problem solve this in your business?”

And when he put it like that, it was really a matter of fact for me. I need to find him a place to live if I'm going to kick him out. I’ve got to do this. I’ve got to file for divorce. I've got to make sure that this, this, and this attorney here, and I did it just very matter-of-factly. Because at that point, I had been done for a year, in my mind, in my heart. I just needed to have the courage to walk away. And I was scared. I didn't know what life was like without my husband. I didn't know if I was going to be okay as a single mom. I didn't know if I had the strength to handle all the things because even as bad as a partner as he was, he still would make sure we had groceries and the laundry was done because he wasn't working much.

So, he would still make sure things were done around the house.

Could I handle all of that and run my businesses? Could I take care of two teenagers and all the things they got going on, being an Uber mom all day long every day? Could I handle the responsibility of the everyday life without any help? Because I didn't have any help without him. Even as crappy of the help that he was to me, it was still help. I still had someone to help me. And so, I was really scared of that.

And I just sat down, and like all good business owners do, made a pros and cons. Why I should do something and why I shouldn’t? This is the next thing. A when I wrote out this list, it was like I already do everything by myself anyway, I just think that I have help, but I really don't. I do everything. So, if I'm already going to do everything by myself, why do I have the pain and anguish of dealing with this, dealing with the turmoil every day?

Every day was like walking on eggshells when I would come home from work, I wouldn't want to come home from work. I would stay at my office and work late every night because I didn't want to come home. I never knew if I was going to come home to him picking a fight with me, him being drunk, him picking a fight with the kids. I didn't ever know what I was going to come home to. So, I didn't want to come home. And so that's when I was like this is madness. I should be at home with my kids, not staying away, because my house is so uncomfortable. And so, I made the decision.

And over the next four months, I dealt with all the divorce things. I dealt with all the emotions. And I was like I'm never getting married again. And I'm over this. I'm 45. Who wants to start over? I hadn't had a date since 1995. So much has changed. How was I ever going to navigate this? And so, the divorce was as easy as it could be in my situation, which I'm thankful for. And it was done rather quickly because there wasn't a lot of back and forth. It was I agree to this, he agrees to this. And we did it very adult-ish. And I'm proud of that.

But now, I'm navigating my new life, and I've got to find a better balance because I was working nonstop. I was working to not have to come home. Now, I got to go home because there isn't anybody around to feed my kids, nobody’s around to do the laundry or whatever. So, I got to go home, and I got to now be mom all evening, which I really didn't have to be because he had taken care of that stuff before I'd gotten home most of the time.

And so, that was different, and I was navigating the new routine. And so, I had to get into this daily routine of leaving work at 3 every day, which was very new for me. Even though we closed at 3, I would stay for hours because I didn't want to come home, and I was getting all this work done. Now, all of a sudden, I'm not getting my work done, and I can't figure out why. Because I wasn't working as much. That's exactly why I can't get my work done.

I had to hire more people. I had to get more help. And it was just learning what I needed help at home. I now need someone to do the yard. I now need a pool guy. I got a house cleaner. You should outsource the things at home too that you would outsource in your business. And I had to realize that it was okay to do that and that I shouldn't feel guilty.

In the beginning, I felt guilty. I can clean my house. I can clean the pool. I really don't want to mow the lawn, but I could do it if I needed to. That was the first thing I hired out because I knew I didn't want to do that, especially when it's 110 in Texas. But it was like telling myself that I didn't have to do it all because I think as women, especially moms, we are automatically programmed to think we have to do everything. And a lot of times, we do because that's just who we are. But I could afford not to have to do everything. And so, I needed to use that. I needed to take my life back, and I didn't want to be cleaning all weekend, I wanted to be able to spend time with my kids all weekend. I didn't want to be doing all those things.

And so, it was like, all right, I'm going to hire a housekeeper. Okay. I'm going to hire someone to come clean my pool once a week. Okay. What else do I need for Sarah? Not for anybody else. And there was guilt around that. And I think that once we are okay with that, that's how we move forward. And then, I started to figure it out. I started to get a rhythm with the house and the businesses, and I travel a lot, too. And so, figuring that with the kids’ schedules, and they both play sports. They play soccer and football and basketball and band. They're all over the place. And I want to be a part of that. I'm not giving that up. That's what I started my business for.

And so, it was just navigating my new normal. And then, realizing eight, nine months down the road, realizing, sitting in my office one day watching TV by myself, my kids have the best social life, so they're never home, what life is going to be like in a few years, because they're 15 and 18. I'm going to be alone alone.

And I want companionship. I want someone to do life with. I have a great life. I want someone to share that with. The thought of dating again made me nauseous. How do you even meet someone? I don't go anywhere. If I'm going to meet somebody, it’s going to be the DoorDash delivery guy, the guy cleaning my pool. I'm not going to meet anybody, honestly. So, out of boredom and curiosity, one night I got on a dating app. And this was my mindset. What is out there in my age range? I just was curious. I wasn't even ready to date at that point.

CAMILLE [32:47]

I would have no clue. I have no clue. I got married at 20 as well. So, I would not know.

SARAH [32:55]

And I was like getting on it. So, I had to make a profile before you can see anybody. I just wanted to go look, I just wanted to browse. I didn't want to shop. I just wanted to browse. I couldn't do that. I had to make a dating profile. So, I made the dating profile really quick, really simple, just so I could go browse. And I put in my age range. And I'm like, okay, this is what it is. So, either I have to choose to do this or not do this. And it was really just a simple choice. And I left it alone. And then, I was getting matches. And I was like, people like me? I'm still dealing with the self-doubt. Here I am, 45.

CAMILLE [33:42]

Dating, yeah, putting yourself out there with your stretch marks and post-baby body, 40-plus. Yeah, that would be scary.

SARAH [33:53]

All the things. And so, the self-doubt creeps back in. Is anyone going to like me? Am I dateable? Am I too alpha of a female for a man to actually want? All of those things. It's a different self-doubt. Now, it's really personal self-doubt. Do I have too many crow's feet? All the things. Yeah, so I start online dating, and I go on my very first date. And I tell my business besties and drop my pin, drop my location. If I die, if I’m on Dateline tomorrow night.

CAMILLE [34:34]

Too many true crime podcast listens, yeah.

SARAH [34:37]

Make sure you take care of my children. These were all the thoughts in my head, but I was willing to risk. I was willing to risk failure. I was willing to risk heartache. I was willing to get outside my comfort zone for something that I wanted. And I think that's true in business and in personal life. I don't want to spend the next 20, 30 years alone. I'm 45. I'm not 80. I don't want to be alone for the rest of my life. I've never been alone in my whole life.

Sure, it's nice to have quiet time. And I love going to bed and messing up all the covers, I love watching whatever I want to watch. I love eating whatever I want to eat whenever I want to eat it. I love that about my single life. I love not answering to anyone. But I also miss being able to like, “Hey, let's go to dinner,” or “Hey, let's go do this fun thing.” I want to spend my life with someone. I love to travel. And the thought of going on trips by myself was very unappealing.

I love companionship, I love love. I want to be in love again. It's been a long time. And so, I was willing to risk it. And I think that we do the same thing in business. We just risk the fear of failure, we risk something not working, we risk that no one's going to buy our offer. But if we don't ever put it out there, we don't know. And that's what I was going through with the feeling of whether I should date again or not. And I had some awesome dates. People love to bash the dating apps and say that it's just terrible.

CAMILLE [36:20]

Which one did you try? Come on. Tell us.

SARAH [36:21]

I tried two. I started with www.match.com. I met a nice man on www.match.com. That was my first date. And we went on several dates. And it didn't work out because our personalities were just a little different. Our ambition and drive was very different. And I realized I needed someone that had a little more drive than that.

CAMILLE [36:42]

Yeah, match that energy.

SARAH [36:45]

Yeah, but what I found with Facebook Dating.

CAMILLE [36:49]

Facebook Dating, that's an app? I haven’t heard of that one.

SARAH [36:53]

It’s on Facebook. If you go into your little profile, there's like a little heart that says dating.

CAMILLE [36:58]

I've seen that on people's profiles.

SARAH [37:01]

Yes. And so, basically, it verifies that you're a real person because you have to be on Facebook, and you have to use your name that's on Facebook, it only shows your first name. So, you can't be like Michael on Facebook and Sammy on the dating app.

CAMILLE [37:18]

Which is actually really good. People catfish. And they can do it effectively. Yeah.

SARAH [37:27]

And also, what I loved about Facebook Dating is that it built an algorithm. Match never quite could figure out who I wanted to date. It kept serving me up people that I didn't want to match with. When I started to pick people on Facebook Dating that I was interested in, it kept serving those same types of people up to me. So, my algorithm was full of these guys that I was attracted to, that I wanted. So, you could put your parameters in, this is the age range I want. This is the mile range of where I'm willing to date. This is who I liked. I don't want anybody that smokes. I don't want this. I don't want this. So, you get to put all that in. And then, based on who I was actually hearting, Facebook was serving me up those men, and it was amazing. And it was so much different than Match. Hello.

CAMILLE [38:18]

That’s funny. I’ve never heard of this one. I'm happily married, almost at 20 years. So, I have no reason to know this, but this is helpful. I didn't know Facebook did this.

SARAH [38:29]

And it's the perfect age range. And we just talked about it in the last episode. That's where my ideal customer was. That’s where my ideal man was going to be. Yes, because that was the age range of people that I wanted to date.

CAMILLE [38:45]

It has me thinking maybe LinkedIn should create some kind of a dating thing.

SARAH [38:50]

I said that. If there was a dating app for me, it would totally be LinkedIn because I want a professional man. I want someone that's established in their business. I also realized that through dating, I want someone that loves their job because there is a big difference in a man that hates his job and a man that loves what he does.

CAMILLE [39:09]

1 million percent. I've had this conversation with so many women. It's like you can be happy and successful in what you're doing, even if it's being the stay-at-home mom and doing that or if it's outside the home or inside the home or whatever. But if your partner is miserable, it bleeds into everything, your relationship, your home life, the way communication happens. So, yes, I believe that 100%.

SARAH [39:35]

And I don't need the CEO, Camille, and I don't need that. And actually, I prefer not to have that because two CEOs in one household is a lot of personality. There's a lot of selfishness going on over there. So, I actually prefer not to have that. But for me, I really wanted a man that had a purpose. I really wanted a man that had a job that they loved, whatever that was. I don't care what that is as long as you love it, I want a man that was self-sufficient, could take care of himself, that could also in turn take care of me if I needed that. I needed support.

And I met really great men. I'd never had a bad date. There are all these dating stories of horrible dates. I never had a bad date. And I think it's because at this age, you know what it is and what it isn't. I wasn't shy about what I wanted on my dating profile. I'm looking for a long-term relationship. I am not a hookup. If you're looking for a hookup, keep scrolling. I made it very clear. And I also put in there, if you match me, come with a conversation, not a “hi.” So, if you actually read my profile, the men I actually went on dates with were the ones that came with me with a conversation.

Because a lot of guys, I would probably get 20 matches a day, Camille, which was amazing for my self-esteem, by the way, but it would be a hand wave or a “hi.” You didn't even read my profile. You didn't even take the time to read my profile. I'm not responding. I'm not doing bare minimum men anymore. You're not going to give me the bare minimum effort. I need someone that comes with effort. So, the guys that will say, “Hey, I saw you liked beach vacations. Where's your favorite beach?” Boom, started a conversation with me. Or I had one guy say, “Would you love steak house or taco truck?” Trying to start a conversation with me. And those were the guys that I ended up having conversations with and would go out on dates with. And that's how it's happened for me.

CAMILLE [41:37]

I like that. I didn't know that’s where we were ending up right now in this moment, but this is good. This is good tea for people. Those are good tips to be straightforward, to know what you're asking for, to have your expectations there. I'm curious. And this is totally circling back, way far back. But with your husband when things were starting to go south and he was doing more of the home management, and I don't know what his job was, but do you feel like his disinterest in your success was because he was feeling down on his own success in his life and fulfillment in his career?

SARAH [42:18]

So, he's been a UPS driver for 25 years. And so, he started to work less, which he loved because it was a hard job. It's a hard job. But I think that ultimately, that's what happened, not intentionally, but I think he was the breadwinner in our relationship for so long.

CAMILLE [42:42]

Which is a big part of identity for men. Yes.

SARAH [42:45]

Yes. And when that shifted, he never acted like it bothered him, but I feel like he lost a purpose. And if I would have seen that earlier, maybe I could have stopped the downfall of everything. But also, that's not my job either. I think that when someone is not willing to recognize what's happening and grow with you, that's a choice they're making. And there were a lot of headbutts with decisions that were being made. And there was a lot of pushback on things. And I felt like it was really trying to keep me from growing more, trying to keep me held back, trying to keep me playing small.

And ultimately, it made me feel small in those moments. Not that I need to be the biggest business owner because I'm not and I don't want to be, but I had a purpose. And I had a vision, and I had dreams and goals. And to be with someone that really doesn't support that or care to even understand that, they don't have to get it. My ex-husband was not an entrepreneur. And they are very different. Regular people are very different than entrepreneurs. And I see that with my friends, and I see it with my relationship. And I didn't need him to be.

I just needed him to be interested. I just needed him to be supportive of what I was doing. And honestly, just act like he cared. And I think that that was really the downfall of our relationship is that he couldn't put past my growth and make it our growth. What I had built, I built with him, what I had built, I had built for us. It wasn't me against him. This was for us. This was for our family. This was for our future. It was never mine against yours. This was ours.

And I think that he just lost his everyday purpose. When he wasn't working very much like one day a week, he would go to work. What do you do all day if your kids are at school all day? And I think he just lost his zest for life. And he started to get depressed, which then turned into the drinking and everything. And he had too much time on his hands. And I feel guilty about that sometimes. I should have encouraged him to do something else, I should have encouraged him to work more, but I needed help. I was running the whole household, I was taking care of the kids, I was running two businesses, I was exhausted mentally and physically, and I needed his help at home. Because as the UPS driver, he was working 12 hours a day.

So, I was working all day long and taking care of everything all night long. He would get home at 8:30 at night. Everyone's asleep, I've worked all day, I've taken care of the kids, kids had baths and dinner. And I'm just tired, I needed help. And I was making enough money that he could stay home and help. And he could go to the soccer games because he wasn't at work, he could take the kids to school because he wasn't at work. He could do those things, but he didn't find fulfillment in those things. And so, that's where the downward spiral came.

CAMILLE [46:10]

I don't want to call it a pattern, but I have seen this play out for women that I know that have gone through a similar situation with having massive success, and their husbands losing themselves in that process. And I think that it's the same for women on the flip side. When kids go off to school full-time, and you're in a space where you now have more of your day, but you're also thinking, okay, what do I want from this life beyond this, what is in the walls of my home? What does that look like?

And I feel like if your partner, if you have someone who can support you in discovering that, and also supporting them in what they're doing and supporting, I think that that's the work of marriage. That is the part where, like you said, if you're developing so much on this level and another person isn’t.

SARAH [47:10]

How do you find that balance?

CAMILLE [47:10]

How do you find the middle ground? How do you come together? And it's really interesting. My husband and I are both Enneagram 3. Do you know your Enneagram?

SARAH [47:17]

I'm a four with a wing 3.

CAMILLE [47:19]

Interesting. Okay. That's interesting. So, what was interesting to me about that, knowing that about my husband is he's an achiever, too. And so am I. And so, sometimes in a partnership, you can either be a really good support to each other, if you communicate that that's what you need, or you can become competitors. While I'm putting in this much time, there’s a competition. Yes. While I'm doing this, what are you doing? Or I did this with the kids, how are you helping? And so, open communication helps a lot. I'm not saying I'm perfect by any means. But I think understanding Enneagram and what you need and what you are looking for now, as you're dating, and I'm curious to see, you're saying it in past tense, so it makes me think you have a boyfriend.

SARAH [48:04]

I do have a boyfriend.

CAMILLE [48:07]

I can tell. Okay. Yeah.

SARAH [48:08]

I’m currently not on the market.

CAMILLE [48:08]

Okay. Go figure, 20 likes or matches in a day. I'm not surprised. You're amazing. But I think that that is really interesting, because as entrepreneurial-minded women, we want to step into that power. I'm trying to remember who it was. Honestly, I think it was Rachel Hollis, where she was talking about, that she didn't want to play small anymore, that she wanted to take up her space and be the person she was, and that it was a threat, that it was a challenge for their relationship.

And so, I don't know what exactly the perfect equation is for this because everyone has their own story. But I really like the idea of understanding yourself enough to know what it is that you're needing in return and communicating that because, like you said, both of us got married at 20. I'm not the same person I was.

SARAH [49:03]

No. None of us are. We were kids.

CAMILLE [49:07]

Yes. It's like growing and evolving. And I never knew that I'd want to do entrepreneurship.

SARAH [49:13]

Me either.

CAMILLE [49:14]

Yeah, it's like you just develop and grow into this. And that is where it gets tricky. So, I love that you're sharing all this. Yeah. Because I'm like, that's a lot. Yeah.

SARAH [49:24]

But there was also a period where even when we separated, I didn't think we were going to get divorced. I thought we would work through it. We went to marriage counseling, but I think that was where I had that aha moment. He wasn't willing to acknowledge that there was a problem. When we were in marriage counseling, he couldn't communicate. He couldn't acknowledge anything. He would get defensive about everything. And I think we went through three months of marriage counseling, and I think that was where I realized this was never going to change and that I was going to be fighting this battle with him for the rest of my life.

And it was so unpeaceful. It was so much of an upheaval in my everyday energy that I knew that I was on a dangerous level of shutting all the way down, burnout, home, work, everything. I was at this dangerous level of just throwing in the towel to everything. And I didn't want to get there. And when he would sit there in marriage counseling, barely say a word, not open up, get defensive when anything was ever asked of him, I thought I can't do this. And I kept telling myself, if you had a student that was just defensive about everything that you were trying to teach them, you would know that this program was not right for them. They're not the right person to go through your stuff, they're not going to listen, they're not going to do the work, they're not going to move forward. So, why would you take their money anymore? You wouldn't, I wouldn't, I couldn’t do that. You're not a good fit, and I would let you go.

And in my mind, I was like he's not a good fit for me. He's never going to even acknowledge that he has any flaws. And that was the same in our arguments or our issues was that he would get defensive, he would turn it around on me, and he would walk out the door. And nothing would ever get resolved. There was never any calmness, there was never any peace, there was always a “sorry,” but it never meant anything because he would turn right around and do it again the next day. And so, it was this cycle of repetitive behavior that I just realized was not going to change.

And I think that as women, we waste a lot of years thinking we can change someone. We waste a lot of our good years thinking we can change a man. And I'm not saying we should ever give up on our marriages, because we shouldn't, and I fought tooth and nail for mine for a long time. But I think also as women, we have to understand that there's power in our self-worth, there's power in feeling strong and bold and courageous and taking back who we are.

And I've gone to the same therapist now ever since. I've been through my life coach, and he says, “You are more like yourself than I've ever seen you.” I was a shell of who I was in that relationship because it just tore me down so much. And I think we have to communicate that to our partners, “This is what I need.” And if they're not willing to meet us halfway, we have to know our worth. We have to know our worth in business, we have to know our worth in relationships, we have to know our worth. And we have to stand tall in that.

And I think that anyone that's gone through that struggle with their partner, they get to their breaking point. And you're either going to work through it, or you're going to walk away from it. And that's really your two options. And I would just encourage everyone to put the work in either way, work through it with your partner or work through it with yourself and walk away, because life on the other side is wonderful.

CAMILLE [53:23]

Hey, yeah, let's turn that page. Tell us where you are now. You have a new man. How long did it take to find him?

SARAH [53:31]

I got a new man. It took five months of dating to find him. Not bad. We've been together for five months now. Solid, strong, locked, and loaded. I gave up my whole roster of dating guys for him because here's the thing. Here's the thing about dating. You can't just date one guy anymore. That's not a thing. You have to date multiple guys until you're exclusive with one. And for me, I had to figure out what I wanted from a man. I couldn't just have a boyfriend on the first date. I had to figure it out. And it wasn't easy because I wasn't sure what I wanted. I'd been with this man since I was 17 years old, but I was like, I don't want that. No, thank you. And I think there was a difference with dating boys.

I dated boys, all these dates I went on were with boys. And then, this man walked into my life and he was a grown ass man, and he showed up with purpose and intention and care. And he allows me to be my soft feminine non-alpha self when we are together, which is something I've never had. And the support I feel between being a mom, being a business owner, or just being me is something on another level. And I didn't realize that guys out there existed like that. And so, it feels really great. And I'm excited for our future.

CAMILLE [55:05]

Wow, that's awesome. I love it. So, we've talked on this episode about overcoming self-doubt. What would be your advice to the person listening and they're stuck in a spot and they need to get out of it, whether it's recording that video or standing up for themselves or investing in time with themselves or their relationship? What advice would you give?

SARAH [55:29]

I definitely am a great proponent of therapy or having a life coach. I think you can work out so much in an hour by talking with someone. So, I would definitely recommend that for anybody listening. It helps in work, it helps in personal, it helps with being a mother, all those things, you should invest in yourself in some way. And that's the perfect way to do that.

I also think you have to give yourself some self-care. I call it wellness Wednesdays. Every Wednesday, I go do something for myself. That might be getting my nails done, getting my hair done one week. I had laser hair removal, today is Wellness Wednesday. So, I would recommend you making yourself a priority in some way and block it in your calendar because we can get so busy with everything.

And then, it's like making your blueprint, making your roadmap to get the thing you want to do. If it's doing your first live video, let's baby step it. What can we do from now? Make the short video, do the reel, go live for five minutes, then go live for 20 minutes. How do you get there? You don't have to go from zero to 100. Same thing with your relationship. What's not working right now? Map it out. How do we get there? Make a plan and see if your partner is on board with your plan. And that's how you're going to know what your next step is.

It's always about looking at a roadmap to wherever you are and wherever you want to be. And it can be as simple as I want to build healthier habits into my business. I want to post on social media regularly. I want to clean my inbox out every day. Whatever that is, I want to plan my subscription boxes four months in advance. Whatever it is that you want to build, let's make a goal. And then, let's baby step the plan. We don't have to go zero to 100 all at once.

CAMILLE [57:15]

I love it. So, one question that I've been asking every person, and I did not give you this question in advance. I apologize. But I am asking, what are you listening to, what are you watching, or what are you reading? And one of each, or it could be your all-time favorite or something that you're doing right now?

SARAH [57:36]

Okay. These three things are non-business because I'm in business all day long. So, I need to turn it off.

CAMILLE [57:42]

Yeah, that’s fine. You need a break.

SARAH [57:44]

Yeah. So, I listen to the Dateline podcasts when I'm in the car going to sporting events with my daughter.

CAMILLE [57:49]

True crime, right? Yes.

SARAH [57:52]

Her and I are junkies. She's like, “What did he do?” We're listening to it together. It's a whole bonding experience.

CAMILLE [57:56]

So fun, yeah.

SARAH [57:57]

I'm reading this really fun romance book. It's called Falling for Whiskey. It's this author called Brittanee Nicole. It's a romance, juicy, fun thing because I'm dating, and that's just fun. And then, what am I watching? I love reality TV. I am a reality TV junkie. And I don't know what it is, but it makes me shut off my business brain. And it makes me feel like my life is pretty dang good compared to all these people on TV. 90 Day Fiance is my favorite show. I love love. So, I'm reading romance novels. I'm watching 90 Day Fiance, and then I'm listening to murder podcasts. I don't know what that combination is, but I'm an Enneagram 4. And I feel all the feels all the time. And that's what's going on with me.

CAMILLE [58:48]

That's perfect. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. I think this is probably the most personal podcast I've done. So, thank you for going there with me. I feel like I could refer this podcast to someone and know that it would really help them if they're going through similar things, whether it's in a relationship or a business going through self-doubt and how to get through it. So, thank you so much for the vulnerability.

And for those of you who are listening to this one and have missed episode one, please go back. You're going to learn so much. You've now spent the time and learned all the things. Make sure you go listen to that episode. And, Sarah, please tell everyone where they can find you and support you and learn more about your business.

SARAH [59:33]

My e-commerce business is www.framedbysarah.com. On all the socials, it’s @framedbysarah. And then, my coaching business is www.launchyourbox.com.

CAMILLE [59:43]

Awesome. This has been an absolute joy. Thank you so much for being on the show. I've loved it so much.

SARAH [59:49]

Thank you for having me. It was so fun.

CAMILLE [59:53]

And for everyone listening, I will link all of those links below, and we'll make sure to put in the links of the books and everything else, too. Thank you for tuning in. And I will see you next week.

[MUSIC]

Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Of course, if you want to connect with me, you can reach out to me at camille@camillewalker.com or go to my website at www.camillewalker.co and look into how you can get your own free Mom Balanced Playbook to help you figure out the ins and outs of family life as well as building your business. And I'm here to help you through coaching or anything you might need. Thank you for tuning into this episode. I appreciate you. Have a great day.

[MUSIC]

Hey, CEOs. Thank you so much for spending your time with me. If you found this episode inspiring or helpful, please let me know in a comment in a 5-star review. You could have the chance of being a featured review on an upcoming episode. Continue the conversation on Instagram @callmeceopodcast. And remember, you are the boss!

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